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Post by reflector on Mar 31, 2017 18:26:38 GMT -5
I know that Sebo uses a tapered hose on their Airbelt D series. Being able to buy these is another story. I'm interested with where we can source these from, since I've been using the 1-1/2" Bosch hoses and I can feel a reduction in airflow compared to my short run 2.5" hose I hook up to the table saw using an adapter.
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Post by toomanytoys on Mar 31, 2017 19:58:00 GMT -5
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Post by kraftt on Mar 31, 2017 20:55:49 GMT -5
.... yes, and Kleen-Rite. Those two are the main distributors for mid-west / east-coast (there may be a few obscure others). I mention this because depending on where you are you will probably pay as much for the shipping as the hose. I spoke with the mgf the other day, looking for closer distributors, and was told some pool-supply houses (both retail & wholesale) are also distributors - getting them to special order, since I'm guessing they mainly sell/carry pool hose, may jack up the price (?). If you guys can hold off I have two remnant samples coming my way to physically see how supple/floppy these hoses are (the other sample being their DGB, non-tapered, series). They look promising but weight and flex of course are key. Ignore the yellow hose and the red+blue display color as the tapered come black with highlight rib color (so i'm told). |
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Post by reflector on Mar 31, 2017 22:08:58 GMT -5
I suspect they'll be like those 1.25" and 1.5" pool hoses you can get from hardware stores or like the Bosch/Festool hoses. Stiffer, not easily "crushable" by your foot like some of the thin Shopvac hoses. I've actually been looking for a source to get a 2" or 2.5" equiv of those pool hoses since the Shopvac hoses are overpriced for what they are and I feel a bit iffy on sacrificing one to make shorter hoses. I also have a 3D printer to handle the connections so this has become an interesting find.
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Post by toomanytoys on Apr 1, 2017 7:52:43 GMT -5
Didn't pickup on the Kleen-Rite business and it looks like they have no business to business statement.
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Post by kraftt on Apr 1, 2017 10:12:55 GMT -5
car-wash.kleen-ritecorp.com/wash/Vth45r (Kleen-Rite) I'm using the mfg. part number PA00398-HSCS15 in searches (red on black color scheme - tapered) to try and locate more distributors. Also going to contact a local pool supply house on Monday I have an account with, when I need motors etc., and see what pricing is.
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Post by kraftt on Apr 7, 2017 18:14:01 GMT -5
( ... still waiting on hose samples. ) Picked up some Shop-Vac brand Hepa bags to test. Same price now as Wunderbag @ 2 for $24. Material is 'similar' to Wunder but the ShopVac bags say for use with dry pick up whereas the Wunder is wet/dry. Only advantage is that the ShopVac Hepa goes to .3 micron and Wunderbag, which is really a pre-filter bag, goes to .5 micron. There are two sizes avail - 12 to 20 gallon & 5 to 10 gallon. I won't know for a while on how well the suction holds up over time compared to the Wunder but so far so good.   *edit - the rubber inlet collar is wider (allowing a fit to a smaller diameter inlet hose) so the inlet mod to make a Wunderbag fit snug wouldn't be necessary with these. *also noticed that the bags have a plastic backer sheet behind inlet:  |
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Post by reflector on Apr 8, 2017 13:43:16 GMT -5
The material on those looks like the polymer weave/mat material found on Sebo's Ultra Bags and Numatic's HEPAflo bags. I use the latter in my Shopvac after tearing plastic collar off (Something I'll fix later when I 3D print a new adapter for the SV so I can use them natively.) Helps keep the HEPA filter clean on the SV after the cyclone, since very, very fine dust can bypass it.
By the way the Numatic bags are 10 for about 10 dollars, more than OK for me to toss them out. The capacity is on the low side however, but it works just fine in my 5 gal Shopvac where they function as a prefilter in effect.
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Post by kraftt on Apr 10, 2017 22:51:30 GMT -5
Yeah the pricing on those Numatic's HEPAflo bags is very good. I think I contacted them once asking about larger bags. I believe the Wunder is 40" x 22" and while they are pricey they do last proportionally. (especially when I cut em)
I'm glad to hear that the SV material looks similar to the Sebo & Numatic's. It would be nice to go to .3 if they last as long as the Wunders.
-----------------------------------
*The hose samples came today, wasn't in the mood to test them thoroughly , but I did throw them in the vehicle and made a stop at the pool supply to compare:
The standard pool hose is slightly stiffer than the tapered sample. They sent other remnants (2) and both (1-½") were a bit more relaxed. It's not a bad hose at all just not much of an improvement over standard pool hose. Pool hose has a fatter rib vs the tapered so they are different designs. I'll take some photos later.
I've been looking at upright canister vacs (made for home) and their detachable hoses (typically about 3ft.). I might buy one those super flexi hoses if they sell them as a replacement part, to attach and complete the final length to tool.
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Post by reflector on Apr 13, 2017 14:14:10 GMT -5
I have an image of 4 types of Sebo bags (And closeups) that I have, but I don't have one of the Numatic HEPAflo bag yet. From left to right: Generic (Bought before the Ultra bags made it to the US) style synthetic bag Ultra bag US HEPA bag Original Sebo bag (Paper exterior with synthetic media on the inside) Closeups in same order. The HEPAflo bags I want to describe as being something closer to the generic bags, but the woven material isn't in layers like the generic bag and its a thicker, more "felt sheet" kind of feeling. The Ultra bags have the material bonded in that dimpled manner. According to Sebo, when the Ultra bags are used, the time between filter changes is doubled (So 10 bags to a filter becomes 20). I've have had good experiences with the HEPAflo bags in my Shopvac and CV06 mini setup. The only thing to watch for is when you're sanding with very, very fine grits (P600 and up) you tend to get lots of bypass through the turbine the moment suction stalls out and it'll make it into the vacuum. If the hose isn't extended into the bag due to it being a non locking type that doesn't nest inside the bag adapter, you get dust flying all over the interior of the vacuum and caking the filter up. At least the Cleanstream filters are washable. |
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Post by kraftt on Apr 14, 2017 12:05:13 GMT -5
... If the hose isn't extended into the bag due to it being a non locking type that doesn't nest inside the bag adapter, you get dust flying all over the interior of the vacuum and caking the filter up. Good to know, going to fabricate some kind of retainer since it can't hurt. Those photos you posted made me think of something... gonna ditch the stock pleated (round barrel) filter and buy the small Numatic HEPAflo bags and synch them over where pleated filter went. I'll continue with .5 micron pre-filter Wunder for the bulk collection and occasionally change .3 micron Numatic Hepa's. -------------------------------- Here's a pic of the tapered hose. It came in blue so it's a stepchild and I'll be kicking it to the curb soon. Haven't bothered to buy cuffs or test it yet. Too many projects but I'll get around to it. The tapering progresses evenly, on mine, from 2" down to 1-½" and not just on the last 5 ft as advertised. For the price I think many will be satisfied if they can benefit from a tapered hose. I tested the standard screw on grey cuffs at pool supply and they fit fine. I found some other hoses, non-tapered, and may end up with the exact same anti-stat hose I use now (2" milk clear with black spiral hose shown in my ShopVac photos inside tub) only in 1-½". They are very light, flexible enough (more than blue & others) and anti stat as well. (Apparently there is 'dissipative' & 'conductive' to be aware of when choosing anti-stat but I don't care at this point).  |
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Post by reflector on Apr 15, 2017 16:14:28 GMT -5
I'd watch what you do with the Numatic bags if you want to use them as pre-filter cover on the filter. You might want to build a cage that expands it around the filter since they seem to have significant resistance to airflow (Especially compared to the Sebo Ultra bag material, which seems to improve airflow versus the other Sebo bags I have. But the Numatic bags seem to have lower resistance than the paper and paper exterior Sebo HEPA bag) and you'll want as much surface area as you can get.
Have you done tests (The "fingers over inlet and feel for resistance" kinds) with the tapered hose yet? I've noticed some noticeable losses when I put my Bosch to 2.5" adapter on instead of running the 2.5" hose that came with my cyclone. My understanding is tapered hoses have closer performance to having a 2.5" hose with a reducer at the very end.
One thing I was going to do is get a normal 2.5" hose and cut it down (Instead of an expensive SV branded one) and have a very short run to the top of my cyclone. I already lose what feels like half the airflow "intensity (Suction and airflow)" from using a 20ft hose, switching the locking end from the 20ft hose onto a 10ft helped, I still think there's close to a 1/3 to 1/4 loss.
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Post by kraftt on Apr 15, 2017 18:16:52 GMT -5
ok so although I don’t have any cuffs for the tapered hose yet (more hoses coming at end of next week to test) I was able just now to press the tapered 2” end against the SV inlet with an excellent seal. i.e. while drawing air I could feel no air getting around seal while I held it in place. My existing SV hose is straight 2” dia and 10’ long with a less smooth internal surface vs tapered @ 15’ with a smooth internal (photo). Going back and forth between the two hoses, using a fairly dirty but not filled Wunder with pleated stock filter I got comparable suction between the two. The 2” straight did have a slight advantage but I attributed that to the wider end giving the impression of a slightly stronger draw. Although the tapered end had less surface area I was still impressed with the draw, enough to not be disappointed. The next test was to install a 2” to 1-1/16” tapered nozzle (9” long) on the end of the 2” straight hose (10’ long) and compare it to the tapered (15’ long) hose as is. The tapered hose as is was far stronger in suction / volume. The straight hose with nozzle was anemic in comparison.  |
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Post by kraftt on Apr 18, 2017 10:00:51 GMT -5
... The only thing to watch for is when you're sanding with very, very fine grits (P600 and up) you tend to get lots of bypass through the turbine the moment suction stalls out and it'll make it into the vacuum. If the hose isn't extended into the bag due to it being a non locking type that doesn't nest inside the bag adapter, you get dust flying all over the interior of the vacuum and caking the filter up.... When I first started using the Wunderbag I was very pleased at how pristine the internal tub walls were but after some sanding and also drywall dust pickup I did see a tiny area where some light powder had collected on the pleated barrel filters black plastic impact barrier I had made. I had punched holes in this DIY impact barrier and it was pulling much stronger being right in front of the inlet. After making a standoff, making another without holes, so the bag suction would be more evenly spaced I not see the dust again. (Probably breathed it but haven't seen it.) Now that I have the .3 micron Hepa bag that should improve things even more, but I think the reality is that no matter how good a job the vac is doing you have to use common sense and realize their limitations. If you sand a lot or are picking up very fine dust you really should use a respirator along with the Hepa. I read this somewhere a few years back and saved it, paraphrased, as a reminder: "A person sitting or stopped generates about 100,000 particles per cubic ft.
Sitting down or standing up generates about 2,500,000 particles per cubic ft.
Walking generates about 10,000,000 particles per cubic ft.
Aggressive movement about 30,000,000 particles per cubic ft.
Grinding, sweeping, welding adds Billions of particles per cubic ft.
Two surfaces rubbing generate Billions of particles per cubic ft.
An open door can add Billions of particles per cubic ft.
Equipment motor / fans stir up particles
Materials introduce particles
Maintenance / cleaning up adds particles
Existing shop residue is additive to the above and generates massive amounts of particles throughout the shop.
You cannot depend upon the filtration characteristics of the HEPA to remove the internally generated contamination. It will only remove a given percentage of upstream contamination. HEPA filters are valuable tools but at the same time keep in mind the constraints of their use. HEPA filters cannot remove contamination introduced downstream of the filter."
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Post by reflector on Apr 23, 2017 14:21:58 GMT -5
I understand you can't get away from particulates without an actual rated clean room, but I suspect I might be overloading the cyclone with my vacuum.* I've been experimenting with a "router speed control" recently on my vacuum to run it at partial power. So far, sanding paint using a Festool Pro 5 LTD with non Festool 60 grit sandpaper has a lack of bypass particulate ending up in the hose after the cyclone. I'll find out later when I sand my projects...
*A CV06 Mini. Vacuum pulls 200CFM but at a relatively weak 60 water inches. Maybe its the airflow just stalling out, but I tend to get very fine buildup. I see people with similar setups but with vacuums that have higher static pressure/water lift and lower airflow but they seem to avoid the fine buildup in the vacuum.
Well so far, I have the "major" characteristics of a nice vacuum with a loud SV used as a power unit. Next up is to build an integrated cart to silence it and have the cyclone on it... As well as have a boom arm on it.
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