mattj
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by mattj on Apr 15, 2017 7:23:01 GMT -5
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 15, 2017 10:02:18 GMT -5
I was contemplating buying the ASC Ultra but the price put me off.It's around the $220 mark. I was also told that a slower charge is better for the battery but don't know how true this is. I still have a Metabo ICS 10 charger that charged a 12 volt battery in 10 minutes. I've often wondered why this rapid charging technology was not copied by the other major companies at the time. As far as I'm aware you're absolutely correct about slow charging being better. Both heat & current (both in & out) can be deadly to lesser quality Lithium cells. How the newer Sanyo/Panasonic cells fare is known only to the manufacturers & licensees. Heat & current often go hand in hand. Lithium cells get hot when both rapidly charged & discharged. I've had a Bosch cordless drill & battery get a bit too hot to handle from being worked extra hard. Low speed holesawing cableways through steel girders in my case. This is why the better manufacturers have fan cooling chargers that draw cooling air through the battery, & thermal sensors & cutouts on batteries, chargers & tools. Given the large charge densities of the biggest batteries, however, the charge times of these new batteries become extremely long at low current levels: Charger Charge Current (A) 3.1AH LiHD(Mins) 5.5AH LiHD(Mins) 6.2AH LiHD(Mins) 7.0AH LiHD(Mins) ASC Ultra 6.5 30 50 60 70 ASC 15 5.0 40 65 80 90 ASC 30-36 3.0 65 110 130 150 SC 60 Plus 1.5 130 220 260 300
Given the sophisticated nature of the cell protection circuitry of the best chargers like the ASC Ultra & German made ASC 15, the risk of thermal cell damage (with individual cell electronic monitoring) SHOULD be minimised. For all practical purposes, & from a personal perspective I'd suggest that anybody who is prepared to wait (in the above worst-case scenarios) over 2-5 hours to charge their batteries simply has way too much time on their hands. Life's too short for those sort of charge times.
These latest Sanyo 20700 cells, according to Bosch, are purpose designed for much higher current charge & discharge, which when coupled with advanced battery design, heatsink finning, internal aerodynamic airways, fan cooling & constant temperature monitoring allows the tool's 3 year warranty to be similarly extended to the batteries too.
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Post by reflector on Apr 15, 2017 16:26:42 GMT -5
Relatively "slow" versus "fast" charging affecting lithium ion battery life at higher temperatures might matter a little less than what's emphasized. There's supposed to be some other effect that will also kill battery life if the cell is warm/hot. Or at least that's a very huge oversimplification. Cool cells are happy cells during charge.
Video for reference: (Over a hour long...)
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 15, 2017 21:09:26 GMT -5
No. 52mm IS 2". Pythagorean Geometry 101: The capacity when bevelled will be more like 35mm odd, just like any other 160/165mm saw. Think of a blade bevelled @ 45 degrees as the long side of a right angle triangle with the 3rd angle being 45 degrees also. The vertical reach diminishes in direct proportion to the angle of the hypotenuse. Or trigonometry... 52-mm * COSine(90) = 52-mm 52-mm *COSine(45) ~= 37-mm Holmz, you're spot-on with your relationship between the hypotenuse and the angle if incident, but as the saw's chassis tends to be hinged above & not at the lower face of the soleplate, a couple of extra mm of depth is usually "lost in translation". I erred on the side of conservatism. These 160-165 mm saws usually quote a bevel depth of about 35mm, less the thickness of the guiderail if so mounted.
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 15, 2017 21:28:59 GMT -5
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Post by shokunin on Apr 21, 2017 8:28:48 GMT -5
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 21, 2017 19:13:41 GMT -5
The table makes (for me anyway) a fascinating read.
It also shows that I've either been personally mislead, or have been misleading others. I've been lead to believe that the 20700 cells (which is the actual dimensional measurement of the individual cylindrical cells) were the product of Samsung, & not Sanyo Panasonic. It's possibly (probably?) my error: it's not unprecedented.
What's interesting to me is that there's only 2 dominant players in cell design: Sanyo/Pana & Samsung, and that the others, such as Sony & Lucky Goldstar are only bit players, & that the tool manufacturers that use these "lesser" cells, principally it seems Festo & Makita, are typically characterised as laggards who seem averse to adopting the latest designs & developments in battery (but not necessarily tool) technology! I've always been less than impressed with either manufacturer's battery platforms. The table illustrates why, & maybe validates my prejudice.
Another surprising aspect of this table is that some tool mnf'rs are using a variety of cells from many different suppliers. This presumably indicates significant similarities in basic chemistry & charge/discharge characteristics between suppliers, and means that little more than the actual battrey/tool bayonet interface separates any one tool manufacturer from another: that one could quite easily & seamlessly circumvent these interfaces and use whatever battery falls readily to hand to recharge or operate a different tool.
Maybe one day all manufacturers will cooperate & produce a common interface for all types of batteries & tools? Ha! Fat chance of that ever happening. You'd be more likely to see North Korea adopting democracy than have the bitter rivals of tool manufacture cooperate in such a manner. There are some tech sharing contracts out there, such as those between Robert Bosch, Metabo/Hitachi & Mafell, but it seems that they're more the exception than the rule these days. Manufacturers seem more keen to fight & squabble about market share & segmentation than attempt cooperation.
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Post by aas on Apr 22, 2017 5:23:43 GMT -5
Maybe the answer is aftermarket adapters for the tools so I can for example put my LiHd's on a Makita impact... charging is a different ball game. I don't see the day coming that different brand chargers and batteries are compatible... unless the EU runs out of things to do and force changes like they did with USB chargers on phones!
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 22, 2017 5:54:18 GMT -5
It ain't gonna happen. Too much investment, both financial for the firms involved & emotional for the diehard fanboys of a particular marque.
If "sister" companies such as Metabo/Hitachi Koki can't get sufficiently intimate to produce some sort of inbred hybrid offspring of a battery mount, then nobody else will. I just think the commercial interests, corporate jealousies & management egos will staunchly resist this sort of customer-focussed inbreeding to the death! Look at how the corporate takeover of Reich in Germany resulted in the cancellation of build contracts for some other German brands' belt sanders at the earliest available opportunity.
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Post by MrToolJunkie on Apr 22, 2017 9:17:31 GMT -5
I thought that the KSS400 cuts 2x at 45 degrees, so I would imagine this one would be able to do to as well if it takes the same blade and similar design.
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Post by ohan on Apr 22, 2017 13:41:41 GMT -5
We might be running into the 2" vs. 2X thing, perhaps?
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Post by calidecks on May 8, 2017 23:43:37 GMT -5
I'm thinking of selling my kss60 36b. It's just too damn heavy for this old man. Perhaps the 50 with the 18v will be better?
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Post by arvid on May 9, 2017 8:48:09 GMT -5
I'm thinking of selling my kss60 36b. It's just too damn heavy for this old man. Perhaps the 50 with the 18v will be better? it is a beast. don't think i will sell mine though. sometimes it just comes in too handy to make a few cuts at that depth without having to roll out a cord. but then again i never seem to sell anything i just collect things. they can sell them when I'm dead
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Post by calidecks on May 9, 2017 13:22:37 GMT -5
I'm thinking of selling my kss60 36b. It's just too damn heavy for this old man. Perhaps the 50 with the 18v will be better? it is a beast. don't think i will sell mine though. sometimes it just comes in too handy to make a few cuts at that depth without having to roll out a cord. but then again i never seem to sell anything i just collect things. they can sell them when I'm dead I'm still pondering. It would be great for spruce 2x fachia, which is quite common out here. Imo, that 50 would be the sweet spot, due to the 18v battery. Which is obviously lighter. All three 40, 50, 60 is where I'll probably end up. However, if I find the 60 just collecting dust it might make sense to sell it. I don't do fachia that often.
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Post by huntsgemein on May 9, 2017 20:22:56 GMT -5
I wish a few more manufacturers would add nice big folding rafter hooks to their saws. Bosch have been doing it for some time now: my 10 year old 36v circular & recipro have them, as do their new cordless/corded 18v/240v recipro "twins". It used to be - & possibly still is - a feature of American construction oriented power tools.
It adds yet another layer of safety & utility to the tool. Clambering around the top plate of a new build is awkward & unsafe enough as a task, without the added complication of power cords added to the equation. This is the key to these new brushless battery tools' convenience. The angle adjustable short guiderail is yet another. To be able to "hook up" or hang your tool between cuts or when clambering through trusses turns what would be a very useful tool into a great, even essential one!
No tool appreciates being inadvertently dropped 2400mm (8') off a top plate onto the slab below! Saws in particular are unlikely to survive that sort of treatment, & the only other alternative - tying the saw up by the power cord - isn't that great a solution, and impossible with the cordless alternative.
With the shift to cordless tools in the workplace, the need for rafter hooks for saws is approaching the "essential". With a saw as expensive as the Mafell will probably be, and as "delicate" or "fragile" as any saw fitted with a short, retractable alloy guiderail is likely to be, then a well-designed hook becomes all but indispensible!
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