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Post by holmz on Apr 27, 2017 5:42:52 GMT -5
Gentlemen, gentlemen - as interesting and indeed, enlightening as this recent, somewhat! tangential, cross cultural discussion is - could we return to the matter at hand? The question that comes to mind for me at the moment is, why so few have participated in the poll. I started it as an exercise in data collection and to potentially use in an email to manufacturers supporting a case for clearer information regarding dust extraction/classification/health issues. Only 3 people other than myself have registered on the poll - did I ask the wrong questions? Is it misguided in some way? Too intrusive perhaps? I have no great knowledge in the subject field, so I am more in receive mode than willing to contribute. Which I mentioned in that it seems bizarre to me to contribute to a poll. But still a worthwhile thread for the potential for useful information. We have rental that needed a lot of TLC and the Mrs bought the vacuum (CT26) for me. In the past I normally used a 3M organic respirator, when doing something with dust, and having a fan running and the window open. And once in a big motorcycle race I wore a simple dust mask and was the subject of great laughing... at the end of day1 I had a light patch under the mask and red dust encrusted everywhere else... And still nostrils were full of dust. So in know I need something, but I do not usually know what it is. In the distant past I once worked in a clean room, which was very pure. |
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 27, 2017 6:30:23 GMT -5
This is a fascinating thread. I've just re-read all previous posts again. Before departing with my dosh I want to be absolutely certain the decision is correct: this machine will be expected to last (with possibly a replacement motor and a handful of carbon brushes) for the forseeable future. 20 years+. I've explored most viable alternatives to date. Starmix is available in Oz., but not in the "South Island". Without adequate local spares & repairs backup, I'm just not interested. Of course, if a Starmix is also a Metabo, a Mafell & an Eibenstock, then that's actually irrelevant. Metabo is well represented, and all parts are presumably interchangeable.
To the best of my knowledge, only Starmix & Eibenstock actually offer 1600w 35 litre M class vacs. The rest make do with 1400w, as does the Starmix H class "asbest" specialist. Eibenstock are represented in Australia proper, but not in my tiny island. Win Metabo. Festool Australia are hopeless. Not only are their products expensive (often in excess of double what other international markets are charged) but since gutting their dealer & repair network, spares take forever to arrive, and repairs now require interstate freighting. No thank you.
Of Metabo's range, the ASR 35 M ACP is quoted according to their catalogue as "especially suited for extracting concrete & rock dust". Fair enough. It's M class credentials, flow sensors and auto filter cleaning make that evident. In fact it has the exact same suite of operator protection devices as its H class sister with the sole exception of the latter's HEPA filters. So it must be very good indeed. No argument here. However, so too does my preferred vac., the 50 litre ASR 50 M SC. The only thing operationally distinguishing the two is the flow sensor prompted auto filter cleaning. The older vac's flow sensors signal an alarm to shut down & let the filter clean itself rather than the process being self cleaning without operator intervention.
If I was still "on the tools" doing what had been my previous career, this would've been an extremely useful feature. Now... not so much. Certainly not enough to demand a 25% premium, which would actually increase when factoring in the smaller capacity's requirement for more frequent bag changes, the expense of sourcing a steel carry handle & the inconvenience of having to carry rather than wheel accessory cases upstairs.
I still think, despite protestations to the contrary, the "50" has an edge as an all round package. It's still purpose-designed for polyethylene bags, has the same flow sensors & filtration suitable for concrete dusts, and weighs the same too. The lack of auto filter cleaning (which is certainly a distinct advantage I've latterly come to realise) is a compromise that I believe I can live with. I just need to fit a polyethylene bag & remember to shut down the concrete cutting or grinding tool regularly to allow the cleaning process to proceed. For all the rest, in fact most of the intended uses I envisage, this autoclean functionality becomes irrelevant by virtue of using enclosed bags.
The fact that it's the same weight, but has a "fatter" footprint, a handle, a 40% increased capacity, the ability to clamp a cyclone on top to minimise the frequency of filter fouling & bag replacement and a substantial price differential are to my mind advantages that actually outweigh the newer machine's undoubtedly more sophisticated filter management.
I also know that there's yet another new generation of Metabo vacs coming. The 2 x 18v cordless with hose-end mounted switching doesn't to me sound terribly convincing. The lunchbox style vac-in-a-box version, although extremely convenient and eminently integrable with those lovely stacks of Systainers & Metaboxes some of us are wont to accumulate, is similarly less than appealing too. In lieu of my experience with it's predecessors from Bosch (Ventaro) & Festool (CTL-Sys) I suspect it will likewise be way too noisy, run a bit too hot, be non-adjustable for speed (making it nigh on useless for smaller sanders like my SXE 400s & deltas) and (at a suspected mere few litres of bag size) infuriatingly in/non??-capacious. I'm sure both will appeal to many users who will find their unique strengths advantageous. They strike me as being a smidge too heavy on gimmickry and a bit light-on for utility. I can all but guarantee neither will be inexpensive: Innovations seldom are.
But for me, I think it will have to be the old fat "50". The remaining Festool CT22 is going to my daughter, who's just started householding and a lifetime's renovation.
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Post by jonathan on Apr 27, 2017 6:56:25 GMT -5
huntsgemein, just be aware that that 50liter model you're talking about is getting long in the tooth.
I think that design it's almost 10years old now.
The sensors and filter cleaning mechanism the new models uses is much more refined and powerful compared to these old models. The entire cleaning mechanism and cycle has been improved quite a bit.
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simon
Junior Member
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Post by simon on Apr 27, 2017 15:34:56 GMT -5
"I still think, despite protestations to the contrary, the "50" has an edge as an all round package. It's still purpose-designed for polyethylene bags" "As I always intend to use bags, the intermittent "autoclean plus" functionality of the latest 35 litre M, H & "Asbest" classes would be utterly redundant, if not a nuisance." Oh, I just thought, by 'bags' I was thinking you meant fleece bags - you'll use both fleece and PE bags as the occasion demands? And then - "...which would actually increase when factoring in the smaller capacity's requirement for more frequent filter changes" - is there any reason to think you'd have to change the filters more regularly on the 35 litre model as opposed to the 50 litre one? After all, the same volume of dust will be produced and dealt with by the filters over time...won't it? or am I being really stupid with that comment?  Anyway, sounds to me that the major thing swaying your choice is volume and I perfectly understand that - no one wants to keep changing bags in the middle of what is often (despite all the bells and whistles:-)) not the most pleasant of jobs. |
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 27, 2017 18:18:24 GMT -5
Thanks Simon. You're correct on both assumptions. I'll be using the vac for a plethora of tasks & in a variety of different guises. The second assumption was a simple mistake; substitute "filter" for "bag". I've already amended my post. In regard to bag choice, mainly fleece & when I'm feeling broke or stingy maybe even those paper bags. I also have an old Kity 12 x 9" planer thicknesser @ home, with no LPHV?? dust extractor connected. Most shavings are swept & scooped away, but the residues will be vacuumed. It's pretty wasteful of bags to use on this bulky lightweight material, which ends up on the garden beds anyway as mulch. To this end the "no bag, naked filter" strategy seems appropriate. For all my sanding duties, esp. with paints of a dubious age, provenance & possible lead content I'll have the material safely bagged.
My greatest astonishment is the H & H "asbest" category's protocols of having hazardous material exposed to a naked filter & near-naked vac interior, primarily the motor housing which is less readily cleaned than the lower half of the vac's clamshell (which can be quickly, easily & safely rinsed). As previously mentioned, I've no intention of ever vacuuming potentially deadly material such as asbestos fibre, but the same methodology applies to less hazardous material such as concrete dust & residues, to which I'm occasionally exposed. It makes sense to follow the established safety protocols for this material as well, using open topped polyethylene bags.
I'm guessing here, but I suspect that the smaller (well slimmer anyway) 35 litre vacs would become if not top-heavy then certainly more 'tippy" when a big cyclone & container such as an Ultimate Dust deputy is fitted. Secure fitment is predicated on there being a systainer clamping mechanism atop the vac. The "50s" have one available (Metadepot), the "35s" as yet don't. These cyclones are pretty effective at diverting waste away from the vac proper, allowing peak airflow and suction to be maintained for much longer periods, and for much greater fill capacity (of the Cyclone's hopper, not the vac) than would otherwise be possible. To my reasoning this is a time, cost, safety-conscious & effective alternative to using longlife reusable bags as had been my previous methodology. The big, wide, fat footprint of the 50, without any noticeably commensurate increase in height compared to the 35s just makes the whole rig much more stable & secure.
So why not keep the 2 devices separate anyway? This would severely restrict freedom of movement about the workplace whilst working. A trailing vac on wheels is essential. A fixed floorstanding cyclone by contrast, or even 2 separate but interconnected devices on wheels would be an operational inconvenience of the highest order!
For those unfamiliar with mini-cyclone operation, the cyclone itself sits atop a substantial waste container, which is lined with a PE bag. Think a similar height to one of these Starmix et. al machines & you get the picture. The system's inlet, however, is a side entry very close to the top of the assembly. This means that when the Cyclone & dust receptacle are attached to the vac, there's a 'double height" assembly, with the dust producing tool's hose attached very near the top of the combined "tower". Combine this with what could potentially be some 20 or even 30 kgs. of dust in the cyclones' dustbox, and the whole rig can become decidedly unstable, particularly if (as I'm guilty of doing) the combined assembly is dragged around the workpiece by the hose.
So in my ludicrously convoluted and needlessly verbose way I'm indicating that the advantages of the "50" to me are both volumetric and related to the intrinsic stability of it's form factor. The "35" I suspect would be more susceptible to tipping, potentially damaging the particularly vulnerable plastic cyclone mounted above that's bolted to the lid of its dustbox. That squat, chubby, wheel-at-each-corner look of the 50 is to me perhaps its most endearing & useful characteristic.
Perhaps it may be useful to add to the conversation the fact that neither the ASR 35 M ACP nor the H model (only the "L") are actually available yet in Oz, meaning that to achieve my desired "M" rating I'd be required to seek out the Starmix or Eibenstock alternatives, neither of which are available locally.
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simon
Junior Member
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Post by simon on Apr 28, 2017 4:52:53 GMT -5
Ok, got it. Everything makes sense now, particularly now you're adding a cyclone to the mix.
Funny that about you not having access to the M or H, only L class. As in the UK it's the opposite, only M and H being sold.
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 28, 2017 5:07:59 GMT -5
I'm a mite pissed about it actually. There's obviously insufficient legislative impetus to both adequately protect tradies from harmful exposure levels and to induce importers to get the correct gear to market.
Instead our pollies are endlessly bickering about house prices and migration. Bugger the health stats: that's going to be future governments' problem, not theirs.
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Apr 28, 2017 7:14:20 GMT -5
It's health and safety when it suits them
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simon
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by simon on Apr 28, 2017 13:28:49 GMT -5
Very good points.
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Post by My 2 pennies on Jul 16, 2017 17:53:21 GMT -5
I did get a chance to check , the Bosch gas35 when AFC is activated it does not lose or pause suction
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Post by duritns on Jul 19, 2019 5:43:17 GMT -5
Softwoods: L
Rest: M or H
Google Starmix Hazardous Information Booklet.
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Post by tablefulfads on Sept 28, 2019 6:24:34 GMT -5
Softwoods: L
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