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Post by My 2 pennies on Apr 20, 2017 16:27:51 GMT -5
Huntsgemeien when the dust bags are used then the AFC (auto filter clean) function has to be switched off. This is also the case when cleaning up liquids. With dust bags the filter doesn't get clogged up so the AFC is not needed. .
The auto clean is beneficial because it gives continuous suction/flow and removes more dust debri apposed to what a vac with a clogged up filter would. The AFC also reduces dust exposure to the user by not having to clean and dust out the filter manually with every use and also increases the filter life.
construction dust , cutting , grinding and continuous sanding produces and propels excessive fine dust which clogs up a filter quite quickly and reduces the suction/flow and dust removal on the vac. This also the case with fine MDF dust. The AFC maintains continuous dust removel and optimal suction/flow level and user protection.
Most Bags come with a seal. The H class vacs have more stricter and tighter controlled waste /bag removal.
Yes I understand what you mean that when dealing with the vacuume i.e. Changing bags removing filters ,emptying vac , service etc there is dust exposure but it's nowhere near what you would be exposed to if cutting grinding /sanding in a closed room with no vacume or trying to sweep it up with a brush.
To limit dust exposure while changing the filters and emptying bags etc , do this out side in the open air with a p3 mask on.
Hope this helps
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 20, 2017 17:43:33 GMT -5
Thanks for that 2 pennies. What I can infer from your info is that my strategy for getting the previous generation 50l Starmix/Metabo self cleaning vac is valid.
The lessons seem fivefold: firstly, the "new gen" 35l autoclean vacs are more about compliance with proposed legislation than actual operator protection.
Secondly it's much safer to use an M class bagged extractor of any generation than a polyethylene lined "unbagged" new gen. vac.
Thirdly that any vac must be emptied outdoors in the open air where contaminants will be scattered to the winds rather than directly inhaled.
Fourthly, that reusable bags are inappropriate for hazardous materials due to the risks associated with their emptying and reuse as opposed to direct disposal of an undisturbed bag & contents.
Finally, that the operation and maintenance of the previous generation of extractors, in addition to being some 40% more capacious, will be a tiny fraction of the operating expense of the newer generation autoclean vacs that require much more frequent filter and motor replacement due to continuous unbagged & only partially filtered fine dust contamination. The previous generation of vacs will require more frequent bag changes, however due to interstitial clogging that cannot occur in an unbagged installation.
It seems to me that these latest vacs are indeed a backwards step.
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Post by My 2 pennies on Apr 21, 2017 2:46:36 GMT -5
Yes that's right inside there will be more dust and less clean fresh air . It's about Concentration levels, when working indoors the place should be well ventilated, open windows for a good clean air flow.
Inregards to to the AFC I don't think it's step backwards as such because bags usually get clogged and filled up quickly and don't Auto clean so the flow and suction is reduced, the sensors detect this and the alarm warns the user. I think this is a step forward.
The bags have a seal so the harmful cacogenic dust is trapped and the bag disposed without exposure.
Problem I find wi Bags is they are costly like decent ones are about £5 each and get filled and clogged up quickly. They also have to be bought and stored along with all other things you have to remember and get.
I personally don't use a bag and the AFC keeps the filter clean and maintains optimal flow /suction upto 32L , this lasts a while it's quite a big container. I then take my vac outside with my p3 mask on and emty it or wash it out with water.
Some one suggested a damp towel earlier that's good idea also, water works the best in dust suppression. I carry garden hose Reel in my van all time. When I'm cleaning up rubble I wet it all down and also use water surpression on my petrol disc cutter
My previous vac was not AFC it was a hassle the filter got clogged up very quickly and the flow /suction useless. Now I can go for over a week without having to touch the inside of the Vac.
I think the new vacs are excellent powerful and give good user protection. Legislation regulation is important also especially when it comes to the H class usage. if the powertool has poor dust extraction and design then a vac can only do so much , common sense and good practice along with a good vac is what's needed. A well aired ventilated work space will have less dust concentration.
Hope this helps.
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simon
Junior Member
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Post by simon on Apr 21, 2017 9:57:00 GMT -5
TNO which as far as I know is an independent research body (this from wiki - "TNO was established by law in 1932 to support companies and governments with innovative, practicable knowledge.[2] As a statutory organisation, TNO has an independent position that allows to give objective, scientifically founded judgments.") has a clearly written description of the relevant design criteria for dust extractors -
"DESIGN CRITERIA -
When designing a vacuum dust extractor, there are many factors which can influence its performance in real working situations. Drawing upon our many years of experience with products from a wide variety of manufacturers, including practical testing and independent review of every aspect of their construction, TNO has compiled a set of comprehensive guidelines for the design of good extractors.
The full guidelines can be downloaded below. Some of their key points are summarised on this page.
AIRFLOW
As a rule, the airflow through the extraction tube or hose should be as high as possible. Specifically, the following guidelines should be observed.
Ideally, the airflow as measured at the end of the extraction tube should be at least 150 m³/h.
The greater the diameter of the tube, the better (Ø 50 mm, flow unchanged; Ø 38 mm, flow reduced by 25%; Ø 19 mm, flow reduced by 65%).
The shorter the tube, the better (the standard length is 3-5 metres).
A smooth inner wall is better than a rough or ribbed one.
FILTERS
There are a number of different possible filter concepts.
Three-stage filtration (cyclone, fine filter, type H HEPA filter).
Simple filtration (L, M, H).
Disposable filtration system.
The most important design requirement is to ensure that the dust filters do not clog easily and so seriously impair the performance of the extractor whilst in operation. This can be achieved by applying one or more of the following solutions.
Mechanical cleaning (vibration).
Reverse pulse cleaning (airflow inversion).
"Continuous" filter replacement and/or dust collection filters.
Use of preseparators (cyclones).
It is vital that the airflow in the extractor be maintained during filter cleaning. For example, by cleaning half of the filtration system whilst air continues to flow through the other half. We also recommend that an airflow indicator, acoustic or visual, be provided so that performance can be monitored on a constant basis.
DUST COLLECTION
There are a number of possible options.
"Open" container.
"Open" plastic bag.
Sealed paper bag.
Sealed plastic bag.
The drawback with the "open" solutions is that they cause greater fouling of filter systems. On the other hand, sealed paper or plastic bags reduce the extractor’s effective capacity as they fill up. One advantage they offer, of course, is that less dust clogs the L, M and H filters. And once full there is little or no danger of exposure to hazardous substances during disposal. That is not the case with “open” systems.
DUST-SOURCE ENCLOSURE
Dust-source enclosure and the use of dust extractors are closely related topics. With the source completely enclosed, no dust should be able to enter the immediate working environment. Otherwise, it is very likely that so-called “fugitive” dust will escape. The extent to which the dust is contained in this way affects the performance required of the extractor."
It's clear from the above and what people have said here, that there are a number of important, interdependent variables involved in ensuring the best possible results.
We all get that it's not possible to have a 100% dust free work environment, and that sometimes compromises have to be made predicated on work circumstances, budget and time constraints.
I've done a lot of reading in different forums about this subject, and a couple of things have struck me - 1) There's a fair bit of confusion and misinformation floating around;
2) There's a fit it and forget it, mentality.
Personally I'm not as uninformed or confused as I was, but still more than I'd like to be, and until recently I definitely had a 'fit it and forget it' mentality. I signed up and paid up! for a set of festool sanders and a dust extractor CT33e in 1999/2000, convinced of the 'system' approach and the advantages of 'dust free' work. And it all did work and it was money well spent - for me, the guys working with me and my clients. But I didn't really understand the ins and outs of it re things as simple as - how the machine actually worked; what sort of filter I had fitted; how best to dispose of the dust etc I just left it all to the machine, and the night and day difference in quality of work experience. Maybe I was at the lower end of a spectrum, but I reckon I wasn't alone. Now I'm asking more questions and concerned about the views that might say, for example - "I have
a dust extractor, so I don't need to wear a mask." or "I can save money by reusing the bags or using a Longlife bag." "M rated is 1mg cubic metre and H is 0.1mg cubic meter. H has a different bag and filter. So unless my maths is totally wrong it is x100 more efficient" - this last from a festool representative answering a question about the difference between the CTM 26 and the CTH 26.
Jonathan commented above - "The nano coating on the filters is supposedly there to facilitate the filter cleaning. Kind of sounds like marketing to me though. It has no impact on the filtration level of the filters.
And correct, what isn't caught by the filters passes through the unit."
As far as I can work out from the info I cited, the nano coated polyester filter IS more efficient. This is definitely where the marketing muddies the water, however "Kind of sounds like marketing..." and "...has no impact on the filtration level..." are mutually exclusive statements. When I hear the word 'nano' I also think someone's trying to sell me something, but I don't take that as a given. And secondly concerning what's missed by the filters - isn't this one of the most important areas to look at, as potentially when using a set up that appears to be catching the bulk of the dust, your machine is also releasing fine dust particles through the exhaust.
In U.S., are all dust extractors now Hepa rated and fitted with Hepa filters? or is that just festool ones? I say Hepa rated because Festool themselves stated when U.S. regulations changed -
"We have had HEPA certified dust extractors since 2006, that’s nothing new. The important distinction is that Festool has further tested and had its units certified by an independent lab for FULL UNIT HEPA. Meaning that the entire unit is HEPA certified, not just the filter.
Why is this important? Because the EPA’s RRP regulations specify that the vacuum must 1) have a HEPA filter – check, and 2) have no bypass leakage – check. The second part of that requirement is what no other manufacturer, to my knowledge, has tested their vacuums for nor certified them to meet. By meeting the spirit and definition of the rule to the letter, Festool meets and exceeds the requirements of a HEPA Vacuum having no bypass leakage with the certification to back it up.
The free filter is for those who purchased a CT 26 or CT 36 unit in the last year. The free filter will upgrade the unit to FULL UNIT HEPA Certification, rather than just having a HEPA filter which they had already employed since day one. Anyone who purchased a non-HEPA version of the CT MINI or MIDI can purchase a HEPA filterand have Full Unit HEPA Certification.
All dust extractors being shipped from our warehouse as of October 1st, come standard with the new HEPA filter and have the Full Unit HEPA Certificate included in the box."
That's October 1st 2011! If Hepa filters give the highest MERV rating, why isn't this a standard for the European market? I can only conclude this is driven by health and safety legislation. I understand that Festool AC models can't have Hepa filters fitted, but all the other models can.
Anyway apologies for going on, bit of a mouthful there. And I know I've not been as clear as possible concerning AC/self clean models and standard models, just tried to talk about the things that concern/puzzle me.
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Post by mafelluser on Apr 23, 2017 8:14:02 GMT -5
If you're from Europe I'd recommend you buy the Starmix iPulse ARM-1635 EWA  If you're from the States I'd recommend you buy a Metabo ASR 35 ACP  Jonathan, is there any difference whatsoever between the specifications of the Starmix vs Metabo-branded variant? I'm guessing the Mafell S35M may have been tweaked (perhaps on the circuitry side of things) by Mafell, but perhaps it is identical to the Starmix. I can't help feeling Mafell are placing a premium on near-identical vacs, but maybe there's something important I've overlooked. The Metabo seems a little more reasonably-priced, but, again, maybe they've reduced some functionality that I've overlooked. I'm in the UK, and looking to obtain a new vac in the next 6-9months. The Starmix is not easily available here, but I would like to know if the Metabo lacks something the Starmix has, or vice-versa, and furthermore, if there is any specific functionality that Mafell have added in their variant, to justify their pricetag. I could be willing to go the extra mile in sourcing the best option, between these 3 brands, if there is a legitimate reason to do so. To add further confusion, I also noticed another rebranded Starmix option, but the CFM seems lower than the others: www.alphacut.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&manufacturer_id=21&product_id=689I will admit, the Bosch GAS35M, My 2 pennies suggested, is on my shortlist, too, although the following remarks, about the Bosch VAC090A, make me wary, in case the GAS35M behaves similarly: mafell-users-forum.freeforums.net/thread/383/bosch-vac090a-autoclean____________________________________________________________________________ thedude306 Avatar Jan 5, 2015 18:44:38 GMT 1 thedude306 said: Well my new vac showed up today (like five minutes ago) First two things I check (as I wasn't able to find an answer online) The auto filter clean does cut suction, but I don't think it's going to be an issue as it happens really fast The power outlet if not live all the time. That's a big downer if you want to use it without the vac. ____________________________________________________________________________ Thanks, both / all. |
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Post by mafelluser on Apr 23, 2017 8:49:30 GMT -5
Incidentally, I'm also cheesed-off at how ambiguous the specifications are, from some extractor manufacturers, in relation to how much wattage they can supply to the powertool socket.
I see Bosch clearly state 1800w.
I'm well aware that the combined load of the extractor+powertool must not exceed the capabilities of the wall socket and fusebox, so it's coasting quite close to that, but, since the MT55CC is rated at 1400w, it is very important that any vacuum extractor can supply at least this much (something which may prevent me from buying a Festool CTL SYS for compact mobile workstation use)
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Post by My 2 pennies on Apr 23, 2017 15:28:31 GMT -5
Mafell user the metabo asr is a 1400w and 248 Mbar
The Starmix is 1600 and 259mbar
The starmix has speed control I'm not so sure about the asr
The starmix is top of the range vac but I think they are about £700 /£800
What concerns have you got with the Bosch gas35?
I use my dewalt 717xps which is 1675 w on the Bosch.
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Post by mafelluser on Apr 23, 2017 16:32:11 GMT -5
Thankyou, My 2 pennies - are those figures definitely for the feed-through to powertools, and not for the power consumption of the extractor itself?
Looks like the Metabo might be an unwise choice for anyone with an MT55CC, then (unless the 1400w is a conservative figure, with some percentage of leeway)
Re' the GAS35, I am wary about whether it might pause suction during the brief cleaning cycle, as the vac090a was said to do, in the thread I linked, above. Wouldn't bother some people, but it would seriously annoy me, and I consider it unacceptable for a high-end vac. Hopefully the GAS35 rectified that behaviour.
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simon
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by simon on Apr 23, 2017 18:29:27 GMT -5
The Bosch has one filter, so when AFC is on, I'd assume it would lose suction while filter was cleaned, once every 15 seconds. This is the advantage of the Starmix and equivalent models by Metabo, Mafell etc - they have two filters and because each one is cleaned alternately, and only when needed - they maintain suction.
The Bosch gas 35 M AFC is rated at 1380 Watts maximum power input, the rating on the socket cover reads Max. 2200 Watts Min. 100 Watts. The vacuum is 254 mbar at the motor head and 230 mbar at hose end
The Metabo ASR 35 M ACP is 1400 Watts max power input, and I think you can run tools up to 1590 Watts. The vacuum is 248 mbar at the motor head and 220 at the end of the hose. The Mafell S 35 M has the same technical specs as Metabo
The Starmix I pulse is 1600 Watts max power input, I can't find a figure for what wattage of tools you can run. The vacuum is 259 mbar at motor head and 230 mbar at end of hose.
The best prices I can find online in UK are - Mafell -£670, Starmix - £583, Bosch - £480 and the Metabo - £470.
I'm still unclear regarding suction control on the Starmix and its copies,though I've been separately assured by retailers that the Metabo does not have it and the Mafell does - the Bosch does have suction control. This is something I would like, as the bulk of my work is sanding, and I don't always want full power suction.
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Post by mafelluser on Apr 23, 2017 18:42:23 GMT -5
The best prices I can find online in UK are - Mafell -£670, Starmix - £583, Bosch - £480 and the Metabo - £470. Thanks for going to all that effort to find that information, Simon; much appreciated! Can you point me to where you found the Starmix being retailed in the UK, please? Cheers! |
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 24, 2017 0:56:19 GMT -5
Incidentally, I'm also cheesed-off at how ambiguous the specifications are, from some extractor manufacturers, in relation to how much wattage they can supply to the powertool socket. I see Bosch clearly state 1800w. I'm well aware that the combined load of the extractor+powertool must not exceed the capabilities of the wall socket and fusebox, so it's coasting quite close to that, but, since the MT55CC is rated at 1400w, it is very important that any vacuum extractor can supply at least this much (something which may prevent me from buying a Festool CTL SYS for compact mobile workstation use) It actually depends on the jurisdiction in which they're used. In Oz., we're allowed a mere 10A (2400w) total load per outlet. We DO have 15A outlets, too, but these are fitted with larger earth spades, requiring a correspondingly heavier duty male plug and even bigger (20 & even 30??A) that have rounded earths & bigger terminals with fatter cross sectional area. These heavy duty outlets are required to have individual circuits running from the switchboard, & individual circuit breakers. Britain is allowed 13A (I think) per GPO & West Germany (at least in 1984) some 16A. Each & every 'class' of vac, whether Festool Ct or Starmix 35l L, M or H version will have similar internal wiring. Nobody would completely reengineer their tools for each & every different jurisdiction (except for plug & legislative sticker fitment of course): it would be prohibitively expensive. Thus, a 220v tool is a 230v tool is a 240v tool. Another minor 'tweak' is the max allowable wattage sticker fitted to the extractor's power outlet, which is jurisdictional specific. I'm a very bad boy. I've always used my Festo & Festool vacs for all my 'dusty' power tools; from 200w sanders to 2400W grinders & diamond chasers, 2300w router etc. etc. It's illegal, and shouldn't be done. The Festool has a max allowable of about 1200w? on the outlet. In heavy going the vac's wall plug gets warm. I also have a convection/microwave stove (Rosieres) with a plug that has been sufficiently warm to partially distort the body of the plug. Be warned. This is how electrically induced housefires start - high currents through thin or narrow conductors creates resistance induced heat, just like a toaster's element or a lightglobe's filament. That said, in doing so I'm probably invalidating warranties, breaking the law, and allowing those scumbag insurance companies an out should claims arise therof. You've been warned. I have rewired all outlets & circuits that carry greater currents with greater cross sectional area cabling and appropriately sized RCD breakers to safely handle these currents. I couldn't possibly know the state of your own electrical installation, and therefore default back to the legislative maxima allowable in your own particular jurisdiction, which can vary wildly. Be sensible, be safe, stay alive. I also intend to buy a new more powerful (1400w) vac. that will (probably) have a "max load 1000w" sticker on or near the power outlet. I intend to use said vac, for routing, chasing, grinding & any number of other tasks that might exceed the legislative maxima. I suspect that I shall continue to do so, completely incident free, for many years to come. But I'd never recommend anybody else do the same. That would be wrong & irresponsible. Don't do as I do, do as I say. Incidentally, the min. wattage stated on the sticker is just that, +/- 10% or so: the minimum wattage for any appliance connected to the vac's outlet that will trigger the machines' auto on/auto off functionality. |
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Post by My 2 pennies on Apr 24, 2017 3:25:49 GMT -5
I did a lot of research back then when I purchased my vac, my choice was between Acr , starmix and bosch. At the end I purchased the gas35 from toolstop and added a 5% discount code on checkout I think it cost me about £380.
I spoke to one uk starmix importer are specialists in dust extraction management and safety equipment, but I can't recall all the details now tbh , but when I told him later I purchased the Bosch 35 he said it was a excellent machine.
il give him a call later today about the starmix I pulse and try get some info here . I normally connect the Mt55cc and the 1675W 717xps at the same time on the gas35 with a double plug. I noticed the Bosch has a really thick heavy duty powercable
Iv never noticed any suction loss on the Gas 35l tbh , Il see if I can get a demo vid up later sucking some dry sand up . Can vids be uploaded here or only pictures?
running cost wise it's two filters in the asr /starmix and one in the Bosch. But this will prob work out the same depending on the price and life of the filters . Iv seen the Bosch filter on for £16 and £25 on eBay but I'm not sure if this is a genuine part? Iv also seen some starmix I pulse filters for £69
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simon
Junior Member
Posts: 83
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Post by simon on Apr 24, 2017 4:57:28 GMT -5
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Post by My 2 pennies on Apr 24, 2017 13:00:04 GMT -5
Thanks Simon I already know about that site but I think mafelluser wanted to know what the power intake is also on the starmix website it shows speed control but doesn't on the other sellers l so that's why I said I would call the guy when I get a chance.
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Post by mafelluser on Apr 24, 2017 14:29:40 GMT -5
Really appreciating everyone's contributions, thankyou!
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