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Post by Red on Jun 24, 2015 20:50:53 GMT -5
By the way, John, I'd be very interested in knowing what you do with the slabs you get from places like the business you linked me to. From what I recall -- based on the TV show I mentioned -- they had some massive slabs for sale.
Do you like to build exotic tables? Perhaps you should consider starting a thread showing your "wares," aye? 
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ross
Junior Member
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Post by ross on Jul 14, 2015 18:47:09 GMT -5
Hiya People Red suggested I post about the chisels I'm using on some oak at the moment. These are Japanese hand forged from Tools from Japan. I didn't buy them specifically for framing but thought they may be of some use. I've only got one 1 1/2 inch Oire-Nomi (standard Bench Chisel) and one 1 1/2 inch Usu-Nomi (paring chisel) but they've been okay so far on various trimming and 3 mortice n tenons. Here's the standard one;   Which you may see is really a bit short for the task in hand. If you look carefully you may also be able to see the paring chisel in the shot below;  I'd have to say that these probably don't have the heft for oak framing, and the Oire-nomi really needs a bit more length. However they're taking the work well so far and no chips or need for honing yet. |
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Post by Red on Jul 15, 2015 0:10:23 GMT -5
Judging by what I can see in your photos, Ross, the chisels seem to be doing a fine job.
I know a master timber framer who swears by two things: Red Oak and Japanese chisels. Yeah, you have to have decent length to perform certain tasks, but, judging by some of the Red Oak joinery I've seen come out of his shop, I'd say that you're definitely on to something with Japanese forged steel.
By the way, typing all of this out makes me want to give Samurai-style timber framing a try.
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ross
Junior Member
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Post by ross on Jul 22, 2015 14:01:19 GMT -5
couple of slightly clearer views of the chisels (okay, one I've noticed is out of focus).   As I said earlier, probably better for smaller jobs but they have been okay at 1 1/2 x 6 inch mortices and tenons. |
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Post by Red on Jul 22, 2015 15:07:55 GMT -5
Considering that you're working with English Oak, Ross, you're really putting your cutlery to the test.
How are the edges holding up?
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Post by ohan on Jul 22, 2015 15:46:14 GMT -5
You need Tataki Nomi. They're bigger.  (Oire Nomi on the right for comparison, pic from Suzuki-ya) There are several sizes - the ones pictured above are Atsu, which are generally the beefiest, akin to Western framing chisels. They make other kinds that are longer/shorter/narrower to get into specific places. |
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ross
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by ross on Jul 22, 2015 15:57:17 GMT -5
Considering that you're working with English Oak, Ross, you're really putting your cutlery to the test.
How are the edges holding up? I gave the paring chisel a quick swipe on the finest stone and ground a couple of small nicks out of the oire-nomi. I thought a quick refresh would help but they could have gone on longer. This was after three 1 1/2"x6"x5" mortices, tenons and a 6"x6"x4" hole. I'm pleased so far and think they are noticeably longer lasting than my Bahco site chisels (though 8 Bahcos cost approx 1 Japanese chisel). |
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ross
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by ross on Jul 22, 2015 15:59:51 GMT -5
You need Tataki Nomi. They're bigger. Cheers Ohan. I've been looking but my wallet is severely shrunk at the moment, however the little oire-nomi is holding his own. |
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Post by Red on Jul 22, 2015 16:17:57 GMT -5
The (longer) Atsu chisels in Ohan's photo remind me of some of the antique western framing chisels out there. That's definitely a shape that I've never seen forged into a Japanese framing chisel. The Oire Nomi type, on the other hand, is the type I've actually seen in use by certain New England joint cutters.
Very interesting chisels, nevertheless.
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Post by ohan on Jul 23, 2015 0:01:44 GMT -5
I am far from an expert on these things, but I've personally had good luck buying used, both from eBay and tool websites (for example, japan-tool. It's funny, japan-tool is run by a Japanese guy living in Australia, while toolsfromjapan is run by an Australian guy who lives in Japan). EBay tends to be hit and miss; often the tools look like they've been buried in the ground for a few decades (more likely just exposed to the heat and humidity of Japan in some old, long dead, daiku's toolbox). Many only have a few year's steel left in them. But some sellers have fairly new stuff. A seller I've used named yusui just listed a small set of 5 tataki nomi NOS, unused, for under $300; it didn't sell so he parted it out and each chisel only went for around $40. The 30mm chisel below sold for $33 + $12 shipping! Such a deal - if I didn't already have similar chisels I'd have been all over it.  |
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Post by ohan on Jul 23, 2015 0:26:10 GMT -5
The (longer) Atsu chisels in Ohan's photo remind me of some of the antique western framing chisels out there. That's definitely a shape that I've never seen forged into a Japanese framing chisel. The Oire Nomi type, on the other hand, is the type I've actually seen in use by certain New England joint cutters.
Very interesting chisels, nevertheless. More on Japanese chisel types on Chris Hall's blog here: www.thecarpentryway.com/CraftsmanshipinWood/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=430 |
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Post by Red on Jul 23, 2015 22:37:10 GMT -5
I am far from an expert on these things, but I've personally had good luck buying used, both from eBay and tool websites (for example, japan-tool. It's funny, japan-tool is run by a Japanese guy living in Australia, while toolsfromjapan is run by an Australian guy who lives in Japan). EBay tends to be hit and miss; often the tools look like they've been buried in the ground for a few decades (more likely just exposed to the heat and humidity of Japan in some old, long dead, daiku's toolbox). Many only have a few year's steel left in them. But some sellers have fairly new stuff. A seller I've used named yusui just listed a small set of 5 tataki nomi NOS, unused, for under $300; it didn't sell so he parted it out and each chisel only went for around $40. The 30mm chisel below sold for $33 + $12 shipping! Such a deal - if I didn't already have similar chisels I'd have been all over it.
( tataki nomi? ).
The chisel in the photo clearly reminds me of the one's that I've seen in use in NE Mass, so, for a decent price, I'd be very tempted to give one a try.
Thanks for the helpful info,
Red |
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Post by ohan on Jul 24, 2015 5:40:06 GMT -5
Not quite sure what you mean; all the dealers have tataki nomi for sale. There are many different sizes and shapes, however. Stu at toolsfromjapan has a nice breakdown of the differences in names: Tataki Nomi TypesMost aren't as long as Western Framing chisels. The Tataki Atsu Nomi are only about 12-14" in overall length. They're like the bench chisels.. Just BIGGER! This image is from japan-tool, and it again shows a regular bench chisel on the right for size comparison:  The Anaya Nomi are the exception; the handles and blades are as big as Atsu Nomi, but their necks are much longer. These are probably about the size of Western chisels, but are meant to reach into deep holes, so they're pretty specialized. That's a (wide!) chu-tataki nomi on the bottom for size comparison - this is the "medium" size, bigger than a bench chisel but smaller than the atsu:  This page from japan-tool has more on the anaya nomi pictured above, as well as the history of this type of tool. All these chisels were meant to be struck; there are different names for the paring chisels and slicks. If you're talking about the length of the blades or the cross sectional shapes, again, I see multiple examples for sale on all three sites I linked..  Some of it is a function of blade width - the narrower blades (about the size of the neck) tend to have straighter sides, similar to mortise chisels. Once the blade width surpasses the neck diameter (which in some cases is almost 1") then the blade tends to be bevel-edged instead. The eBay store link I gave is also selling Tataki Nomi.. It's just that all the blades have been worn down to little nubs! The ones in the pictures I posted earlier were either new or NOS. My advice would be to keep searching for "Tataki Nomi" on eBay until something you like comes up - just don't outbid me! The first picture I posted was from Suzuki-ya, which is a shop in the Bay Area ( Hida Tool is also in that area). These are excellent dealers, but they only deal in new merchandise, which is quite expensive. Stu Tierney at toolsfromjapan also sells new, but at a substantial discount. The catch is you have to wait for your order to be made (he doesn't carry inventory, he works directly with the smiths) and you have to pay to have them shipped from Japan. That takes - sometimes - months. This is why I've been buying used lately, and so far things have worked out.. At least as far as I can tell - a pro bashing on these things all day into hardwood might have a differing opinion. One last thing about buying used - you will inevitably come upon the question of smiths, and as a beginner I have no clue who is a good smith vs. just a normal one. To a certain extent, you can tell by the way the chisel looks, but I put a lot of trust in the above dealers to steer me in the right direction. I'm really at their mercy (sound familiar?). Of course I'm stuck with these dealers because I only speak English. If I spoke Japanese there would be many more doors open to me, but alas.. I am American so I only speak one language.  I'm sure the Aussies on this board have more experience with Japanese tools than I have. Maybe they might be able to point you in more fruitful directions. |
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Post by Red on Jul 24, 2015 12:34:13 GMT -5
Wow! Thanks for the great addition to the thread, Ohan! The "advanced" search utility on eBay must be too advanced for this old neck to use properly. When I get a few minutes, I'll certainly give this most informative post the diligence it deserves. Thanks again.
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ross
Junior Member
Posts: 52
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Post by ross on Jul 25, 2015 13:31:36 GMT -5
You just don't know how much restraint I'm applying to not buy more chisels!!!!
So far my standard Koyamaichi bench chisel is doing fine in 5" deep mortices (okay, I may pinch a finger now and again), but the paring chisel isn't any where near a slick in performance. ToolsfromJapan are easy to get to the UK but no-one else is and Stu seems not to be doing the big Nomis.
I've just choked at looking at a Barr slick's price here in the UK and wince at the Sorby's.
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Some of it is a function of blade width - the narrower blades (about the size of the neck) tend to have straighter sides, similar to mortise chisels. Once the blade width surpasses the neck diameter (which in some cases is almost 1") then the blade tends to be bevel-edged instead.