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Post by kraftt on Oct 22, 2017 21:19:48 GMT -5
Woodpeckers said they would make me one of their OneTime Tool Precision Framing Squares 660mm (26”) even though they’re shown as retired. My question and use is this. The F-WA seems to be a love it or leave it accessory for some here. But I noticed others using the large Woodpeckers triangle and or the large framing squares to 90º their rails with only one measurement mark on long rips. So does the problem with the rail’s grips fighting the F-WA lessen when using a large separate squaring device or is it that for the bother of attaching the F-WA you just grab a big square instead and are already done. If the separate square is a preferred or faster method I’m wondering what the technique is or if by having them separate it works because you can tilt the rail easier while still maintaining full edge contact with the square. For small squares I just buy cheap aluminum carpenters squares and hone the edges / sides until I get parallel lines when flipped. I know about Anderson Plywood's layout square CNC'd out of Phenolic European Ply but when I called them ask what the tolerance was the guy said he didn't know but that he was sure that it was the same as Woodpeckers because both were CNC'd - I hung up. Looking for a much larger square I picked up some scraps from a local CNC shop where they told me the edges were true 90ºs, they were free but when I flipped them I wasn’t impressed. I questioned them about this and they spoke about bearing wobble etc. blah. Next I tried a plastics shop with CNC routing thinking I would make a huge one out of polycarbonate but again these guys all seem to deal in hundredths of an inch. I also contacted GEI , who make steel calibration rulers, about their acrylic machined edge pro drafting squares, people on the net claim that machined drafting triangles available at the art store are as accurate as a Starrett, but when I spoke candidly with sales there they said there is no accuracy standard for them and they’re imported from China. Then you get on the Starrett forums and get an ear full of some saying it’s Chinese junk now and others trusting them with their life. To my thinking a sheet of ply cut on a mafell rail with a brand new 48 tooth blade still isn’t Starrett straight everywhere along the edge if only for some residual dust, stresses, etc, it’s woodworking and I’m fine with that. But other than that what do the rest of you use / prefer? ‘Peckers tells me that they precision machine and also check measurement twice with calibration tools designed for the task, once during machining process and again after finishing process. I think I’m just buying a reference for peace of mind but in everyday use against a wood edge I have to wonder if I’m fooling myself. Am I going overboard here when a flipped drywall T-square would work just as well if dialed in?
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Post by GhostFist on Oct 22, 2017 22:42:52 GMT -5
First, I don't like that they call their speed square style squares, triangles. Second, I don't own anything by woodpeckers so I can't really comment
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Post by erik on Oct 23, 2017 8:40:45 GMT -5
I'm all for calibration but its not something I can do to just one application. If you're going for high level of calibration, I think you need to go all the way and address each tool and action. Once you start, it will be difficult not to apply those standards across the board. Seeing good results is infectious. I do this ever couple of years or when I have a 4 sided mitered box to make and just get pissed off at misaligned angles.
When it comes to squaring 90 on the rail, I use the woodpecker's 26" but usually the issue, if there is one, is not compounded like with multiple sides miters since Im doing larger cabinets boxes, etc..
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Post by kraftt on Oct 23, 2017 16:22:25 GMT -5
erik - so you just mark a cut line with the framing square and then align splinter guard to the line, or are you pushing rail against square?
(GhostFist - lol)
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paulj
New Member
Posts: 9
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Post by paulj on Oct 23, 2017 22:20:40 GMT -5
Part time hobbyist with very limited practical experience here One main reason I bought the peckers square is because of the frustration of going back and forth aligning splinter guard to the tape measure marks. I was hoping that butting the rail against the square would get rid of that exercise and improve consistency. When I got the square, the first thing I did was to choose a datum edge of a 24 inch plywood (largest spare I have) and cut on the remaining 3 sides. After that, I measured the diagonals with a tape measure. I was pleasantly surprised that they were spot on. I remeasured several times just to be sure I wasn't deliberately aligning the marks and hooking the tape measure in the same position for each corner. I noted this is a one time test and it is only 24 inches. I think this method of testing is practical enough to check for squareness of the square and parallelism of the rail but I am not sure. Perhaps a longer workpiece would show some error but even so, I doubt my manual alignment of splinter guard to tape measure marks can do better. Reason being, there is some guesswork during marking and there is some guesswork during alignment. On top of that, I have to make sure the tape is not skewed which is another challenge.
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Post by holmz on Oct 24, 2017 5:46:05 GMT -5
I usually mark and put the rail on against the mark. Then I measure from the edge peering down at where the tape is over the splinter strip. (Being mindful of parallax)
Almost always I am <1/2-mm when I measure the cut afterwards. Mean error is probably 0 to + 1/4-mm.
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Post by kraftt on Oct 24, 2017 7:14:52 GMT -5
Looking around it seems like peckers has the large square thing sewn up as far as price and trusted accuracy for that size. Though it's .001 'per foot', not the entire length of the square. Still, if the edge you're pushing against is straight, and your marks are parallel, and your rail is straight etc. etc. , worse case your cut would be off the thickness of a sheet of paper at 8 feet.
But with all the variables involved I just wondered if there were other options so I didn't have to baby this thing since I work on site more often than not. Suppose I can use the peckers square to make & check rough service plywood squares too.
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Post by erik on Oct 24, 2017 9:11:26 GMT -5
Hey Kraft, Mostly shop use for me and yes, pull my numbers from the reference edge, line up the square and just mark the two points on either side of the panel, then set the splinter strip to those points. Never used it for marking beyond 30". I grew tired of this and picked up the kss rails and saw; similar process, but the kss rail alignment needs to be checked with the square every few cuts to make sure I'm achieving a 90 degree cut/dado. Making face frame cabinets and wardrobes with this method allows for a bit of wander. I have some Euro/frameless cabinet/furniture to build in 2 weeks, I'll be using the square for layout of the Zeta fittings. The pecker's square has a nice heft, so I can leave it in place, handsfree, start the zeta, bring it in to alignment wit both hands, and push with my hip against the square when plunging. I think peckers sells another square or angle that can be calibrated...to what...I do not know, but if I needed that square for field work and thought it out performed competition, value wise, I might be tempted to buy an expensive shop only reference square for all my equipment, and use that to recalibrate my site used square on occasion. I do a lot of other work besides, wood media, so I'm always looking at other trade tools for cross over application. Saw this folding square and wondered how accurate it could be? www.contractorsdirect.com/A-Square-Layout-Tool
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Post by chippiegary on Oct 24, 2017 9:45:59 GMT -5
The tso square for Festool rails looks a great product hopefully he will make one for mafell / Bosch rails in the future I’d be definitely interested .
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Post by bicycleclip on Oct 24, 2017 10:09:48 GMT -5
The tso square for Festool rails looks a great product hopefully he will make one for mafell / Bosch rails in the future I’d be definitely interested . There’s a guy called Frank Cochrane whose essentially doing just that. m.youtube.com/channel/UCGcLPdH7cGaYSIfAJOegTmwThe price is comparable, around £180.00 I’m looking forward to receiving mine. He’s getting about 20 made a month. I can send you his email address by private message, or find the Facebook group Mafell Talk Group, which has a lot of UK banter going on, to which he is a regular contributor.
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Post by chippiegary on Oct 24, 2017 10:57:36 GMT -5
Looks interesting looks very similar to tso product “i prefer fixingclip on tso over Allen grub screws “ but hey could be better perhaps you could post your thoughts when you get it . Thanks Gary
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Post by kraftt on Oct 24, 2017 12:24:19 GMT -5
erik - yes, those collapsable layout squares go way back. The idea wasn't bad but it would take someone machining the parts to a higher spec as well as adding a lip to one side to make them legit (plus I don't think they would flip well or lay flat). As far as making two marks I was thinking to avoid walking around by using the longer square to work from one side. I'm sure you could do that too and are just going for double check precision. But I'm glad to know that the woodpeckers is delivering excellent results. I guess, as always, you need everything if only some of the time.
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bicycleclip - I had no idea these were being made for mafell - thanks for posting link. (edit, actually I think I followed a link you posted before but forgot because he was only in prototype... I see now that he went from an angled design in red to a square on both sides design in black. I guess the rectangular square on both sides allows you to set it up on the other end of rail, if necessary or preferred. And the black keeps everyone happy.)
the MUF rocks, thanks you guys.
( btw- If anyone hears about a quad-copter drone that hovers above work emitting a gyroscopic stabilized laser grid onto material please let me know.)
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Post by kraftt on Oct 24, 2017 16:47:18 GMT -5
It looks like FC Hybrid is already onto the MkIII which, besides mafell clamp access slots from the MkII, now has a notch for the P1cc (to start cut between FC Hy & edge on metal rail edge) and there are two new attachments; a 45º & 22.5º triangle guide that drop on.
Wonder if suggesting he offer a drop on 26" straight edge for scribing 90º for layout (about 20" useable since the FC is 150 X 360) instead of relying on a short attached mafell rail edge is something anyone would use.
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Post by bicycleclip on Oct 24, 2017 16:49:07 GMT -5
---------------------------- bicycleclip - I had no idea these were being made for mafell - thanks for posting link. (edit, actually I think I followed a link you posted before but forgot because he was only in prototype... I see now that he went from an angled design in red to a square on both sides design in black. I guess the rectangular square on both sides allows you to set it up on the other end of rail, if necessary or preferred. And the black keeps everyone happy.) the MUF rocks, thanks you guys. ( btw- If anyone hears about a quad-copter drone that hovers above work emitting a gyroscopic stabilized laser grid onto material please let me know.) The previous link wasn’t mine but a user named Taz posted links to the Frank Cochrane Mafell square last month. That led me too it, so I agree, MUF is a great resource. There would have been a better chance of a passing bird dropped a Cochrane square on my head, than having found that out any other way.
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Post by kraftt on Oct 24, 2017 17:32:43 GMT -5
I think peckers sells another square or angle that can be calibrated... - that's actually what I've been really looking for, the holy-grail. Something I can abuse a bit and readjust if needed. I even considered going to a machinist to make one where the registration edges (similar to 'peckers) both pinned at the corner only and at the far end you would turn a captive fine pitch screw to adjust to 90º. You would flip it till you got the results you wanted then tighten set screws.
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