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Post by huntsgemein on Sept 20, 2017 19:34:49 GMT -5
That's great news Henrik. I look forward to your operational review.
I have a couple of specific Q's that I hope you can address after a couple of days' use that I feel confident that you in particular (given that you already have an MT55 & KSS40) can answer. Without any different info to the contrary, I'm assuming the "50" is equipped with a variant of Metabo's EC grinder motor; as fitted to their 125/150/180mm models. If so, then it's likely to have a peak input of about 1200w. So, using your MT55 as a benchmark, how do the 2 compare on power? This in particular is important to me, as I deal almost exclusively in Oz hardwoods, for which the emphasis is most def. on the "hard". My previous experience with brushed cordless saws (Metabo, Makita & Bosch 18 & 36v models) has been particularly disappointing..
Also, in comparing it operationally to your "55", how effectively does it plunge? Does it pack a retractable "flipkiel" or does it lack a riving knife? If the 55 is truly the benchmark against which all other plunge cutting saws are measured, then how effective is the KSS 50 in comparison? I also presume that the 55 is the definitive choice for portable ripping/cutting up sheet goods such as MDF, ply & particle board. Will the new Saw be at all comparable when mounted to FSN rails? What operational differences are there between your corded rip Saw & the cordless crosscutter when rail mounted for ripping?
I haven't asked any Q's about it's cross cutting abilities: mostly because I'm considering it a given that it's going to be a superior performer in its particular specialised role. But I'm particularly interested in versatility in its other, less than primary roles. Of course, I and I'm sure others on the Forum too eagerly await your comments/comparisons/criticisms too. For me in particular, this Saw has been eagerly awaited, but given my previous less than encouraging experience with older cordless saws & the expense involved there's quite a lot swinging on your feedback. A Saw, freight, tax, rails, joiners, clamps & other associated paraphernalia represents almost 2 month's income (or at least 6 month's savings), which would make a speculative, ill-considered purchase impossible, and a mistaken purchase little short of disastrous.
Having said that, I hope that I haven't placed undue pressure or responsibility upon your shoulders. That was never my intention. Rather, from your obvious experience as a full price paying real world user of these tools, your apparent absence of confirmation bias & studied, measured comments in both this and "the other" fora I feel confident that you are absolutely the right person to provide the answers I'm seeking. A warts-&-all review as opposed to a rather breathless, new owner's love letter or some sort of meaningless sales spiel masquerading as a quasi-review.
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Post by joshgraham on Sept 20, 2017 22:38:01 GMT -5
Website says it has a cuprex motor so it's not a metabo grinder motor
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Post by huntsgemein on Sept 20, 2017 23:03:16 GMT -5
You may very well be correct, but as far as I'm aware the only Cuprex motors fitted to Mafell's range have in the past been mains powered. I'm still pretty sure their low voltage EC motors are outsourced. I doubt they have the production capacity or volume to economically make their own.
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Post by calidecks on Sept 21, 2017 2:18:50 GMT -5
I just can't get over how HUGE that container is. It must weigh at least four to five kilos on its own... ...well, it might come in handy for other stuff. The shape lends itself well to mixing odd stuff and putting it on wheels. To answer the question a while back in the thread: Yes, the KSS 50 has a blade brake. It stops fairly quickly and sure is nice to have.  Haven't tried the kick back protection yet, should work the same as the KSS 40. So the pure version comes in a case? Thanks henrun. Can't wait to get mine in my hands! |
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Post by calidecks on Sept 21, 2017 2:33:23 GMT -5
What's the end cap for?  |
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Post by holmz on Sept 21, 2017 2:52:49 GMT -5
Well the term, "double bagger" comes to mind.
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Post by henrun on Sept 21, 2017 16:16:22 GMT -5
Calidecks: end cap is housed in that receptacle. It is just a cap holder. When removing the dustbag from the machine the cap is transferred to the other hole. The whole dustbag connecting side opens up via a clip and is emptied in literally two seconds. Not sure about the longevity of the actual clip but as a whole the dustbag is very well thought out. I might snag another one if it fits the Festool planer - hate that saggy excuse for a bag... Holmz: butt plug is stuffed in that lower orifice. That is the Oz version of the above description.  huntsgemein: I will try to plow through your wish list and will certainly be able to answer most of the questions after monday, when the saw has worked a full day with various tasks. Todays premiere was cancelled due to rain so I was indoors all day, will try again tomorrow... The motor on the mains powered KSS50cc is probably a Cuprex motor, yes, but I don't think the KSS 50 18M bl is a Cuprex motor, it does not have the Cuprex Compact/Inside sticker and the manual makes no mention of it. The motor is touted as "new" by Mafell but if it had been a Cuprex I am sure they would proudly have that sticker on it. I will email Mafell and ask the German sales rep, she is usually a rapid responder. I don't think the saw suffers from not being a Cuprex considering how powerful the little KSS 40 18M bl is, it isn't a Cuprex but it is very efficient. I have some size comparison pics, with the MT55cc. Will post shortly. |
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Post by henrun on Sept 21, 2017 16:24:03 GMT -5
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Post by henrun on Sept 21, 2017 16:30:40 GMT -5
The KSS 50 18M bl (henceforth referred to as the KSS 50...) is a little bit taller and a little bit wider. Balance with battery on is excellent. Haven't checked weight yet but feels similar to the MT55cc though might be a little heavier. Overall they feel the same - the KSS 50 does not feel bulky in hand. KSS 50 has a FLIPKEIL which is springloaded and runs smoothly. In the manual they encourage the use of a kickback stop (which I have) and they briefly go in to kick back in the manual and how to avoid it. The motor is touted as "new" and I am not sure it is a grinder motor derivative - I would not mind that since the Metabo grinders are very endurable. I will run the saw on the FSN rails this weekend and rip some Oak (benchtop) and perhaps something thicker so I can gauge the power/performance against the MT55cc. I have ripped 32mm Oak with the MT55cc - not with the best blade for the task though - so I know what it is capable of. The Oak I will rip to width is "just" 26mm though. If it sails through it with the 24 tooth blade I think it will be a good performance indeed. Come Moday I will rip some Pine flooring approx the same thickness and I really look forward to seeing if the saw delivers on the massive pine wood flooring cross cut/ ripping. There will be plenty of 45mm studs around so I will try to include a few chops in the workout for the day. I did have the KSS 60 cc (briefly) and that really made short work out of chopping 45m studs so I am hoping for "similar" performance from the KSS 50. The MT55cc does fit in a SYS 3 (I think) but I haven't got one in the stack (!) though I will probably get one for it since I evicted the MT55cc from its nest and fitted the KSS50 in the SYS 4. Note the green Metabo charger in the picture. I have high hopes for the KSS 50 but I have also come to terms with the fact that there is not a single do-it-all saw. The smartest combination would perhaps be the MT55 18M bl and the KSS 40 18M bl - one true plunge/track saw and a very agile chop/universal saw. I will enjoy the luxury of having the MT55cc in the stable and by relegating it to the work shop I might get more mileage out of it, not less. I do foresee regular use of the 770mm cross cut rail for the KSS 50 but I will hold that order until I feel confident that the saw will be the main work horse. It won't replace the KSS 40 for laminate flooring and for general indoor use, the KSS40 is simply to agile and that folding track is simply brilliant - plus I have several blades, some resharpened so it is great to have sacrificial blades on the cheap when doing renovations. |
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Post by henrun on Sept 21, 2017 16:33:19 GMT -5
Calidecks: Yes, I was surprised to have it delivered in the hard case. At least it isn't Commie Red. It is an excellent and sturdy case, though I think it is too heavy for me for the saw. I will find use for it I am sure. Now that I have it I think it is kind of cool and even though I would gladly have opted out for a significant price reduction of the saw I might as well try and make something useful out of it. EDIT: I would be very interested in hearing your take on the KSS 50 vs the KSS 60 once you get your hands on it. At the end of the day I think most of us pine for that extra depth of cut but there will always be that "if only it would cut a few cm's more..." and I also think that the KSS 50 might have hit the sweet spot when it comes to power/weight/performance ratio for 18V saws. |
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Post by huntsgemein on Sept 21, 2017 18:14:03 GMT -5
Henrik, you're the man! No pressure intended or implied by my "wish list". All in good time, as your use of the tool/s gives you an indication or their relative merits & deficiencies. All I'm really seeking is some sort of unbiased operational comparison between your extensive suite of corded & cordless saws, which will only become truly obvious over quite some considerable time & use.
I think there's some unnecessary confusion arising over the use of cuprex motors. It's simple really: all Cuprex equipped machines are denoted by a "CC" suffix. Ergo, all those that aren't, well.... aren't. Therefore, the mains CC version of the "50" (& all the other KSS, MT, P1 etc. etc.) is thus equipped, but the EC (brushless) version isn't. Who actually makes the EC motor is a moot point. I'm guessing Metabo merely by virtue of their demonstrable expertise & production of most of the rest of Mafell's 10.8 & 18v motors & electronic interfaces. If it is indeed the motor from the existing 18v 180mm grinder motor then that's a really good thing, as it's Metabo's (& possibly the world's) most powerful 18v EC motor to date.
Henrik, I seem to recall that you also have a small 18v Metabo SCMS. Would this tool fit in your Mafell steel trunk? My own SCMS has plastic, alloy & steel appendages hanging off it in all directions, making it almost uniquely vulnerable to transport damage. To protect it, I ended up making a wooden trunk with what I considered the lightest possible materials to still perform the intended task adequately. 19mm ply base, 12mm sides & 6mm top. It still weighs a "ton", unfortunately, making it a bit of a chore to actually transport, especially to carry any distance. Yet another candidate for the fitment of casters, & still nowhere near as useful as a steel version would be.
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Post by calidecks on Sept 21, 2017 20:30:50 GMT -5
Calidecks: Yes, I was surprised to have it delivered in the hard case. At least it isn't Commie Red. It is an excellent and sturdy case, though I think it is too heavy for me for the saw. I will find use for it I am sure. Now that I have it I think it is kind of cool and even though I would gladly have opted out for a significant price reduction of the saw I might as well try and make something useful out of it. EDIT: I would be very interested in hearing your take on the KSS 50 vs the KSS 60 once you get your hands on it. At the end of the day I think most of us pine for that extra depth of cut but there will always be that "if only it would cut a few cm's more..." and I also think that the KSS 50 might have hit the sweet spot when it comes to power/weight/performance ratio for 18V saws. I have a feeling the kss50 will make my kss60 obsolete. I have the 40,50, and 60. Probably end up selling the 60. We shall see. Thanks henrun for the very informative review. |
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Post by henrun on Sept 22, 2017 14:16:28 GMT -5
Ok, first day of use under the belt. Mostly positive impressions. Lining it up to a cut - or simply touching it - activates the LED which is handy, no trigger to press and instant illumination of the cut mark. Good feature. Though the saw is not a feather weight it does not feel heavy in use. Once placed on the material to be cut it is a smooth affair. Coming from the KSS40 it felt bulky for the first two/three cuts but after that it felt fine. The one negative is the Dustbag. The red rubber plug fell off the receptacle. Well, inserting the rubber cap "the wrong way in" fixed that, so that the rubber rim/edge locks it in place. Not very intuitive - but no big thing. However the Dustbag itself WILL NOT STAY PUT on the machine. It fell off straight away. Puzzled I wrangled it back in place. After the next cut it fell off again. REALLY made an effort to squeeze it in place, emptying the bag down the machine and out on the scaffolding in the process... ...only to have the bag fall off the very next time I placed the KSS50 down on the scaffolding! Upon inspection of the otherwise very nice looking dustbag I noticed that the nozzle is noticably conical in shape. The connector isn't. This means that however hard you squeeze the dustbag in place it is very easily dislodged. How this Dustbag connector made it past trials and into production is beyond me. On most Dustbags the nozzle fits over the dustport, like on the EHL65 planer (very secure) and on most other machines equipped with a dustbag. On the KSS50 there is a small conical nozzle which will partially obstruct the dust chute when in place and it is also prone to falling off. I will email Mafell tomorrow about this, it is not acceptable on a battery machine that is probably having the Dustbag in place most of the time. Even when I thought I had it "fairly secure" it would pop off with barely a touch. For the rest of the day I simply ran the saw without the Dustbag... The above rant at least goes to show there is very little else to complain about at this point. Will get some more milage on the machine on Monday and perhaps sourcing a different Dustbag from my vast collection of Dustbags. I also have a few adapters and a rubber connector that might serve as an intermediary to secure the Dustbag. |
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Post by henrun on Sept 22, 2017 14:30:01 GMT -5
Huntsgemein: the Metabo 18V SCMS does not fit the Metal case, it is too wide and a bit too high. I am with you on the vulnerability of the SCMS. It is usually the last one in and first one out when packing stuff - but it doesn't guarantee it won't take a knock or two. For some types of jobs I take a few given tools out of their Systainers and put them in a larger Systainer to keep the number of Systainers down on site. The Mafell Metal case might be able to house one complete setup of restoration tools and accessories, including the Paint Stripper I have which does not really fit anywhere in Systainerland except for the MIDI systainers. I could fit the Paint Stripper, RAS115, Mirka DEOS, EHL65 planer, scrapers, glass cutters and such in the Metalcase. Probably with room to spare for making dedicated compartments and fitting a Caulking gun in there too. I do window restorations a few times a year and it is nice to be able to just put most of the stuff in one big box and roll it away for storage until the next day. Back at the shop all machines go back in their Systainers should they be needed elsewhere but the Paint Stripper and the other proprietary tools would simply remain in the Metal box. At least it would replace one or two SYS II:s and one SYS IV as well as housing other items. It does not matter that it will be quite heavy. Stacking two/three Systainers and carrying them is not much lighter and with good wheels on it it would be easier to cart around than the SYS wheel base on uneven terrain. I would love to put a handle and wheels on it though a trolley would suffice I guess. Or maybe I should just Wall Mount it and make a Booze Cabinet out of it. |
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Post by henrun on Sept 22, 2017 14:43:55 GMT -5
Calidecks: Yes, I was surprised to have it delivered in the hard case. At least it isn't Commie Red. It is an excellent and sturdy case, though I think it is too heavy for me for the saw. I will find use for it I am sure. Now that I have it I think it is kind of cool and even though I would gladly have opted out for a significant price reduction of the saw I might as well try and make something useful out of it. EDIT: I would be very interested in hearing your take on the KSS 50 vs the KSS 60 once you get your hands on it. At the end of the day I think most of us pine for that extra depth of cut but there will always be that "if only it would cut a few cm's more..." and I also think that the KSS 50 might have hit the sweet spot when it comes to power/weight/performance ratio for 18V saws. I have a feeling the kss50 will make my kss60 obsolete. I have the 40,50, and 60. Probably end up selling the 60. We shall see. Thanks henrun for the very informative review. No worries, haven't had too much to say yet. Please fill us in when your unit has arrived. I honestly think you will end up using it more, well, on a larger scale than me. I would think that the pairing of the KSS40 and the KSS50 will be a success, for me it will. A third one would be too much - I can see myself bringing both at times on larger projects - but three? Hell no. Still, the most important part other than performance is having them run on the same battery voltage/system. I am quickly getting used to not having cords to roll up, snag or trip over. For the planer I have a 7,5M cord and it needs to be that length but it does get caught quite often. I did have a look at the new Festool RTS400 18V + corded model. Though I love the idea the machine is simply too large and I have used the RTS400 literally to death over the years and the beauty of it is that you can chuck the RTS400, a spare pad and a stack of papers in a joint systainer / tool cart and it will take up very little space. The new 18V + corded model comes in a very nifty SYS3 combi/drawer but when you actually realize that all the gadgets to keep the machine running end up taking up way too much space I just can't see myself using that. A gizmo loaded SYS 3 for a small sander? No thanks... But stick that 18V battery on an edge router or a planer and I am game. |
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