|
Post by jasonkehl on Jan 21, 2016 6:37:11 GMT -5
Everyone in our area uses green wood and this is most common in other places as well. It's more expensive to use kiln dried wood and it's very difficult to dry large timbers all the way through in a kiln anyway. The wood fibres don't react well to the heat. Green wood is easier to work with hand tools.
|
|
|
Post by jasonkehl on Jan 21, 2016 19:33:14 GMT -5
We installed the remaining trusses today and now we will stick frame to tie together the various roof sections. On the far right is the screen room, that roof will be timber frame. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by jasonkehl on Jan 21, 2016 19:33:59 GMT -5
The view from the ice. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by jimbouk on Jan 22, 2016 9:32:48 GMT -5
Dream house in a dream location for me. Wait until you see what I am buying to do up, I will start a thread on it when we are in. Nowhere near as interesting though!
|
|
|
Post by Red on Jan 22, 2016 13:46:45 GMT -5
Although yours is clearly larger, Jason, it is somewhat similar to the residential project we presently have on hold. Ours has an ICF foundation -- with integrated piers at all load points -- that will clear grade by only two feet, and the frame will [eventually] be erected atop of said ICF foundation.
I see that you incorporated steel fasteners into a lot of your joinery. I also read that you own more than your share of Mafell timber framing (TF) power tools, so I have to ask you the question: How much traditional timber frame joinery did you cut for the project? I'd also be interested in knowing which tree species you used for the timber portions of your frame?
Beautiful setting...looking really good...
|
|
|
Post by jasonkehl on Jan 22, 2016 18:56:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words guys.
We really heavily on the GRK structural screws, we use them at every connection. Essentially we have the loads directly bearing timber to timber and use the GRKs to fasten the joints. Never are the GRKs used for weight bearing, nor are placed in a situation where they are subject to shear forces.
We don't use any pegs so I guess you could say that we don't use any traditional joinery.
I'd like to use more traditional joinery, to foster more of the sense of old school craftsmanship, but as beautiful as the homes are cost is always an issue. My customers don't want to pay more for the time it would take to cut those joints so I don't use them.
I use red pine for all of my timbers. It is cut in our area and is the timber of choice.
|
|
|
Post by Red on Jan 22, 2016 20:08:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words guys. ....We don't use any pegs so I guess you could say that we don't use any traditional joinery. Having been initially taught traditional timber framing (TF) by bona fide old-schoolers -- God rest 'em -- it was drilled into my head that the absence of trunnels/pegs usually means "Post and Beam." The old-world craft of traditional TF is wood-based and, when done properly, allows for shrinkage. I've never laid out or cut joinery into dried timbers, but I've seen cross-sections of TF tying joints that pulled tight enough over more than 100 years to make the trunnels look like a snake (without shearing).
I've never worked with Steve Chappell, but I've worked with joint cutters who have...so I know that the book you've referenced in this thread is a great source for learning the basics of the TF craft. There's no substitute for working with a master, however, so perhaps taking one of his courses would be beneficial to you.
I'd like to use more traditional joinery, to foster more of the sense of old school craftsmanship, but as beautiful as the homes are cost is always an issue. My customers don't want to pay more for the time it would take to cut those joints so I don't use them. Yes, traditional timber framing has become a niche segment of residential construction that is generally patronized by folks who can afford to wait. When SIPs are incorporated into the design, however, the end result of a TF project can be the best of all worlds: extremely strong, very beautiful and very energy efficient.
The best of luck to you, Red in the Berkshires
|
|
|
Post by holmz on Jan 22, 2016 21:40:25 GMT -5
Gents, So what are some good SIPs? And where does one find out how electrical and water is run in a TF design? The infrastructure seems easier with P$B or Hybrid as there are some hollow walls.
Back to the Arunda versus Jason's joint... They seem pretty the same, except that the Arunda/Ligna has the dove tail so it cannot really pull out very far.
I think I will try making a small version of the Arunda/Linga for a scale model build. The idea would be to maybe send the model off to a designer to get some engineer blessing, joint design, drawings, etc. As well as be easier to conceptualise the structure.
|
|
|
Post by Red on Jan 22, 2016 23:04:17 GMT -5
Gents, So what are some good SIPs? And where does one find out how electrical and water is run in a TF design? The infrastructure seems easier with P$B or Hybrid as there are some hollow walls. Back to the Arunda versus Jason's joint... They seem pretty the same, except that the Arunda/Ligna has the dove tail so it cannot really pull out very far. I think I will try making a small version of the Arunda/Linga for a scale model build. The idea would be to maybe send the model off to a designer to get some engineer blessing, joint design, drawings, etc. As well as be easier to conceptualise the structure. I don't want to totally hijack Jason's thread, but I assure you that SIPs -- or Jason's ICFs for that matter -- can accommodate wiring and the limited amount of plumbing that a well-designed plumbing system would require. Chases are cut into the core of both types of wall systems for running either type of utility.
The distinction between traditional TF and post and beam (P&B) is in the joinery only. The interior walls in most of the TF and P&B structures I've ever seen are stick-built, so I guess you could call all of these structures "hybrid" to a certain extent...it's merely semantics when it comes right down to it.
When it comes to router-based joinery systems -- i.e., Arunda or LignaTool -- perhaps we could have this discussion in the thread that was created for this very topic: link to the 'Employing Routers in Timber Framing' thread.
Sorry, Jason.
|
|
|
Post by jasonkehl on Jan 23, 2016 8:27:45 GMT -5
No worries on the topic shift Red, it's funny how threads morph as they unfold. Originally I wanted to share a picture of the ceiling I think has an appealing design and the thread rapidly grew from there, I like that about forums.
I agree that post and beam would be the more accurate description for the style of timber work I do. In my area however, any type of framing that incorporates exposed timbers, regardless of the joinery employed, is referred to as timber frame so I went with it.
I've seriously considered attending a workshop or two to expand my skill set, I love the idea of respecting and continuing time honoured techniques, but I want to be able to incorporate the more time consuming traditional joinery in a profitable fashion. At this point my customers don't really care how the timbers are joined together so I can't charge more for it. I take pride in my work and take care to get the details right, but I need to keep the bottom line in mind.
The big difference in my mind between the joint I use and the Arunda is that I didn't spend $4560.00 USD ($6441.68 CAD + shipping and taxes) to cut them. We all measure the "worth" of a tool quite differently, I consider the very expensive Z5 and ZSX to be "worth it" because they enable me to easily perform cuts that would otherwise be more difficult or time consuming. I realize that others may consider these tools way overpriced.
I hope I don't come across as defensive, I'm just sharing my thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by GhostFist on Jan 23, 2016 10:21:51 GMT -5
My coworkers are often fascinated by my tool kit and can often get people crowding up to check em out as I'm kicking their ass in accuracy and efficiency. I can disperse the crowd by telling them what the tools cost.
However that cost is offset because I'm given the work. Better structures, better finishes, ahead of schedule make you a super god and thus essential to projects.
The tools pay for themselves rather quickly.
|
|
|
Post by Red on Jan 23, 2016 20:56:31 GMT -5
Jason's thoughts about the difficulty of moving from "normal" framing work to traditional timber framing (TF) are well taken, but, as Ghost Fist seems to be pointing out, your reputation is what gets you the work. In other words, a great framer tends gets the framing work and a great finish carpenter gets more of the "big" jobs and, in exactly the same way, a great traditional joint cutter gets the over one-million USD residential timber frame work.
I've worked with a master timber framer who's stayed quite busy -- for a long time -- doing nothing more than traditional TF. How does he do it? First, thanks to word of mouth, monied folk contact him...and, if he really gets into the basic vision, he hand-draws the plans, creates a scale model -- all on the owner's dime -- and, in the end, presents his ideas of how the frame should be constructed. Quite frankly, the guy's ideas are invariably great...and the owner(s) usually see it. It's very hard to beat simple word of mouth.
|
|
|
Post by jasonkehl on Jan 23, 2016 22:24:05 GMT -5
True words Red, maybe someday I'll make the leap to traditional joinery.
To be honest while pricing a new project I always consider incorporating traditional joinery. For now my reputation keeps me booked about a year in advance and I'm hesitant to rock the boat.
|
|
|
Post by Red on Jan 23, 2016 22:39:30 GMT -5
True words Red, maybe someday I'll make the leap to traditional joinery. To be honest while pricing a new project I always consider incorporating traditional joinery. For now my reputation keeps me booked about a year in advance and I'm hesitant to rock the boat. Well, considering your backlog, it seems obvious to me that the framing work you've done over the years must be pretty good.
As for traditional timber framing, Jason, you do have a pretty good head start -- tool wise -- so it would be a shame if you never pursued any instruction. Once again, good luck to you.
|
|
|
Post by jimbouk on Jun 11, 2016 2:18:13 GMT -5
True words Red, maybe someday I'll make the leap to traditional joinery. To be honest while pricing a new project I always consider incorporating traditional joinery. For now my reputation keeps me booked about a year in advance and I'm hesitant to rock the boat. Any updates on this build Jason. Would love to see finished pictures 
|
|