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Post by yetihunter on Jan 11, 2018 8:22:06 GMT -5
So, Holmz, did you buy an AEG sander with Festool written on it or nah? It is the third one down in the pictures. maybe it is an AEG, but the badge says Festool. I feel more comfortable if it was made by AEG  So, should I buy a half sheet finish sander or nah? |
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Post by huntsgemein on Jan 11, 2018 23:14:44 GMT -5
Orbital finish sanders have, on average, about 2.5mm of eccentricity. This makes them ideal to the task. The bigger the baseplate, the "faster" any particular machine will perform the task. They are also fairly adept at flattening larger surfaces, too. Nevertheless, they're slow in comparison to the alternatives. Any random orbital disc sander will be quicker than even the biggest 1/2 sheet sander, mostly by virtue of their faster abrasive scratching characteristics, coupled with the "random" factor of their abrasive contact.
Nevertheless, both tools will require constant motion to achieve smooth, even abrasion. In this regard, a 1/2 sheet sander is probably "better" even if it is slow. Personally, I consider orbitals a bit "old hat" for finishing purposes. Others (notably Holmz) disagree. For me speed of operation is more important than the ultimate fineness of finish: I'm looking for rapid but serviceable results rather than the ultimate in finishes. To that end, I personally prefer a min. orbit of 5mm in any sander, & compensate for their more aggressive scratching characteristics with finer abrasives instead.
My last dedicated finishing sander, an Elu MVS??? electronic V/S machine with a 2.4mm orbit was retired some 20 years or so ago from lack of use. These days, the 5mm orbits of a Festo RS1C 1/2 sheet orbital & Rotex 150 seem to suffice for almost all tasks. I do have smaller orbit machines, but for more specialised tasks such as a brace of Metabo SXE400s (80mm dia x 3.0mm), Deltex & GDA 280E Delta head machines which are principally used for detail work. I'm pretty ruthless with my sanders, getting rid of the more "useless" models that tend to gather dust. In that particular category I'd lump Festo's Duplex LS130 (had a couple & a fairly full complement of profiled bases), Rotex RO90DX and an assortment of "lesser" B&Ds, Triton Random Orbit grinder attachments etc. These were all regarde as being either too slow or messy in use to be viable any more.
To me, most poorly or slow peforming power tools may still have their uses, but in sanders my tolerance threshold is much higher. It's not a job I particularly enjoy, despite having spent a major proportion of my life hanging off one particular variant or another. For this reason I'm still a fan of belt sanders, whereas most users confined these tools to the scrapheap decades ago. There's little faster for flattening large panels. I also still use variable speed sander/grinders with flexible backing pads & rough discs (16, 24 & 36G) for exterior painting prep work.
For the ultimate of fine finishes on raw timber, abrasives won't really "cut it" anyway. The first coat of any liquid finish will raise the severed grain ends, roughening that hard-won smoothness. A quick once over with a folded sheet of fine dri-lube paper takes care of intermediate paint finishing & denibbing. The masters instead used a finely ticketed cabinet scraper for perfect smoothness in days of yore. I've yet to find a better stratagem, especially if its followed up with a rubbed wax finish that won't raise the grain. Finely turned cutting edges like those of a scraper won't tolerate the grit of abrasives anyway, so in finishing fine furniture it's very much an "either/or" situation.
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Post by holmz on Jan 12, 2018 21:04:52 GMT -5
It is the third one down in the pictures. maybe it is an AEG, but the badge says Festool. I feel more comfortable if it was made by AEG So, should I buy a half sheet finish sander or nah? I dunno... I have a 1/2 sheet Mafell uva115e, which is brilliant. But the Mirka DEROS is more pleasant, or more fun, in many ways. I use the uva on thinner stuff and when I need the surface flat. So I use it at lower grits, and then use the Mirka to smooth the surface (knowing that it could become wavy, but the uva controlled the flatness.) If the you have the budget, or an old 1/2-sheet, then "yes". if you are on a budget then mayb you do not need a 1/2-sheet. i suppose the question you are asking is, "now that Holmz has a belt sander, does Holmz still need a 1/2-Sheet?" peobably no, but the uva is less beastly than the belt sander... |
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Post by yetihunter on Jan 13, 2018 15:51:28 GMT -5
Is the DEROS ever going to be available as a biggie and not
a smally?
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Post by huntsgemein on Jan 13, 2018 21:43:26 GMT -5
Bit unsure what you're asking. The DEROS is available in a few variants: a 70mm small one for spot work, & a trio of 150mm (6") diameter versions with 2.5, 5.0 & 8.0mm eccentricities. There may be more too, of which I'm unaware, but I cannot recall any diameters larger than 150mm. I think maybe there's a bigger Rupes random orbit, but again I'm unsure. There was once a 200mm diameter Fein ROS that was a delightfully smooth operator with a 5mm orbit that I considered purchasing once many years (18?) ago. I was instead seduced by the versatility & marketing hype of Festo's gen II Rotex, which I still consider the wiser choice. I much prefer the M8 pad attachment system (despite the occasional tendency of seized grub screws) to the rather wear-prone bayonet system of the third generation Rotexes. Another factor was the limited availability of 200mm abrasive discs: Fein presumably still market them, but that's about it. The more common giraffe sanders are a different pattern again (225mm). As an automotive repair specialist, Mirka does offer some rectangular orbitals. Their DEOS range has a smaller "1/4 sheet" model of 80 x 133mm, usefully similar to Festo/ol's Duplex & RS 400 range, plus a swag of alternatives such as (I think) Flex, Milwaukee, Atlas Copco, Rupes, Stayer, an older Bosch & probably others too. There's also a 70 x 198mm model, with sufficiently weird dimensions to make sourcing appropriately dimensioned abrasives problematic. As far as I'm aware, there's no "conventionally" dimensioned half sheet alternative. There is of course literally dozens of half sheet sanders available from most "quality" manufacturers. In my opinion such a large platen deserves a more aggressive action of at least 5mm eccentricity. Since the demise of Elu's wonderful range the only purveyors of 5mm orbitals are Festo/ol. There's Festo/ol's bagged RS1/RS 100 model, & bagless RS1C/RS 100CQ versions. I chose the latter, being a fan of the tool's heavy duty reputation (like the old Elu) and extraction simplicity. Bags never work as effectively as a proper extraction connection will. As previously stated, not really a proper, dedicated finishing sander. It's just too aggressive in comparison to the "softer" alternatives, but more than compensates by its speed of operation instead. Addendum: just found a Rupes 5mm sander too www.vektools.com.au/rupes-sander-electric-half-sheet-5mm-orbit.htmland a Makita www.gettoolsdirect.com.au/9046-makita-1-2-sheet-orbital-sander.htmlplus there's a Rupes 200mm dia. (5mm orbit) gear-driven planetary sander (like a Rotex in aggro mode) still available www.vektools.com.au/rupes-sander-electric-planetary-sander-200mm.htmlso the choice has expanded widely. |
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Post by yetihunter on Jan 18, 2018 22:41:20 GMT -5
The only 110 Rupes here are straight auto polishers, much like the Flex situation (Flex does sell some metal and concrete tools here, though). And that Makita is discontinued, but you can find the other one they make real easy. I would take the Festool we have here over it though, tbh. It's not "better", it just feels nicer. You'd cry to know that we pretty much don't have 90% of the sanders you just mentioned (Milwaukee sanders outside of US are mos def rebadged euro products). By "biggie" I was asking if the Deos came as a half sheet sander. I totally wrote Deros but meant Deos.  I have the Festool answer to the Deros. Was scared of the paddle control on the Mirka. :0 |
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Post by huntsgemein on Jan 19, 2018 6:04:36 GMT -5
Well in half sheet sanders there's those already mentioned: F's RS100CQ & RS100, M's 9046 & R's SSCA & SSPF. That's about it in 5mm sanders.
If you want a 1/2 sheet model with half-sized orbits, there's still a few made: Makita, Metabo, Mafell, Festo/ol, Robert Bosch, HiKoki, all make lighter-duty models too. But in general even these are more the exceptions these days. They're all incrementally going the way of the Dodo. One of the best half sheet sanders made (Fein) was discontinued a decade or more ago. It's really just about only the sander "specialists" - those companies that take their sanding range most seriously, often at the expense of the other tools in their range - that still make any sort of range of different models as opposed to merely a "token" model or two.
In case you're wondering, I'm talking here about Rupes & Festool, two of the most respected & highly regarded sander manufacturers still producing a range, who tend to have some rather dodgy non-sanding tools available just to help emphasise (I suppose) how seriously they regard their core range of sanders over some/most of their other pretty pedestrian & ordinary power tool range/s.
Is the orbital action's waning popularity justified? I really don't know, but for my type of roughing/rapid/stripping type of tasks there's better alternatives available these days. I suspect the majority of (potential) users agree, voting with their wallets for random orbit disc sander alternatives. The H/D sanders are great, almost unequalled in fact for flattening, but painfully slow & inefficient at both stripping & finishing work in my opinion. Belt & random orbit sanders do it so much ultra faster & faster/smoother respectively.
Or maybe it's a bit like those lovely little delta sanders. There's precious few of these delightful little tools being made these days, despite their undeniable superiority. All the highest quality manufacturers dropped them from their ranges some years ago; for those stupid, useless, ridiculous Fein oscillating saw clones with delta abrasive heads fitted. They're great, often indispensable, as tight access/plunging saws, but nigh on useless as sanders. Their reciprocating rotary action is simply wrong for virtually all abrasive tasks except for those centred around the tool's rim. Yet the access-all-areas small delta has fallen from favour, or worse still been replaced with a near-useless alternative like the RO 90's delta head or big, fat, poorly accessible, gutless "wide" deltas with low power and tiny orbits!
There is, of course yet another very well-represented & time-honoured extremely heavy duty range/class of sanders that are ideally suited to industrial operations: the air driven pneumatics. But that's another story altogether, & one that I'm personally extremely ill-equipped to tell.
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Post by annamartine on Jul 15, 2020 14:20:35 GMT -5
So, should I buy a half sheet finish sander or nah? I dunno... I have a 1/2 sheet Mafell uva115e, which is brilliant. But the Mirka DEROS is more pleasant, or more fun, in many ways. I use the uva on thinner stuff and when I need the surface flat. So I use it at lower grits, and then use the Mirka to smooth the surface (knowing that it could become wavy, but the uva controlled the flatness.) If the you have the budget, or an old 1/2-sheet, then "yes". if you are on a budget then mayb you do not need a 1/2-sheet. i suppose the question you are asking is, "now that Holmz has a belt sander, does Holmz still need a 1/2-Sheet?" peobably no, but the uva is less beastly than the belt sander... Do Check: toolsearchkit.com/best-disc-sander/ |
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Post by huntsgemein on Jul 15, 2020 18:31:59 GMT -5
Randos tend to abrade faster, whereas Orbitals tend to be neater & gentler, although in coarser grits they also tend to "scratch" more.
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Post by holmz on Jul 16, 2020 5:39:57 GMT -5
I dunno... I have a 1/2 sheet Mafell uva115e, which is brilliant. But the Mirka DEROS is more pleasant, or more fun, in many ways. I use the uva on thinner stuff and when I need the surface flat. So I use it at lower grits, and then use the Mirka to smooth the surface (knowing that it could become wavy, but the uva controlled the flatness.) If the you have the budget, or an old 1/2-sheet, then "yes". if you are on a budget then mayb you do not need a 1/2-sheet. i suppose the question you are asking is, "now that Holmz has a belt sander, does Holmz still need a 1/2-Sheet?" peobably no, but the uva is less beastly than the belt sander... Do Check: toolsearchkit.com/best-disc-sander/Well the small parts work well with the UVA. youngest Daugher got a DEOS and likes that her hands to not tingle with it. but those disc sander you linked, are best used by me in a Neanderthal setting, as they go fast, and secondly they act like they need exorcism as they jump around something wild. |
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Post by mafellme on Jul 26, 2020 14:59:50 GMT -5
Orbital finish sanders have, on average, about 2.5mm of eccentricity.
At least the relatively small 2.5mm orbit of orbitals stops them bouncing-off or impacting fine detailed adjacent material, with the edge of the pad, to too great an extent. I think we've all suffered that fate countless times, over the years (less so with experience)
Maybe that's a matter of context? Yes, the baseplate is covering more work area at any given moment, but the bigger the baseplate, the less it will be pressing onto the workpiece, per square inch, per given amount of hand pressure onto the machine, so maybe it isn't always that simple.
I'm inclined to agree. I find this especially true from the standpoint that ROS don't clog the grit anywhere near as frequently as standard orbital sanders. That saves loads of time, in itself.
For 97% of jobs, I agree with you.
Translation: smear a paper picnic plate with mastic, throw some river gravel over it, and attach it to your angle-grinder!
Takes me back to my very early years, making bespoke furniture!
It's true! I've seen a lot of people remark that the DEROS is the closest thing to making sanding a 'pleasant' task, and I agree. It's so lightweight and comfortable (especially with the 125mm disc), along with excellent extraction.
I suppose you could count the LEROS, if you chopped the handle shorter! (I'm not really being serious).
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