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Post by alvychippy on Aug 27, 2020 17:04:39 GMT -5
Was you spying on me? signed cowboy chippy
Seriously, though.... I cringe when I see fitters cutting chipboard-laminate worktops with way too much depth-per-pass, the cutter chattering with flex/vibration, and the router spindle bearings screaming in protest, and the armature sparking excessively against the carbon brushes. We've all seen it.
I like to do a shallow (8-10mm) pass, then carefully jigsaw down the middle of that, and then continue to remove the remainder of the waste material with the router. It's just as fast and it's safer, quieter, and with less wear & tear to the cutter and router. Everyone's a winner!
What If I told you, I use £60-70 spiral solid carbide cutters with special collet (12mm, not half inch)?  However in general kitchen top cutting I used to to 8-10mm cuts and final clean up, after giving good tap on the template about 0.5mm clean up. anyhow, cheers to you all, I'm off to bedski |
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Post by aas on Aug 28, 2020 0:16:53 GMT -5
There are a lot of worktop fitters who don't even know how to use the jig properly. It's been a long time since I did laminate tops, but, full depth plunge, cut in the first 6mm of top pushing the router into the jig (this stops blow out), then start at the right hand end of the jig and pull the router towards you cut a third through, then two subsequent passes to complete the cut - final cut full depth going left to right pushing into the jig, this is the clean up cut. I've seen enough guys trying to fight the router by doing all the cuts left to right as they go through the passes . I also used to jigsaw off after the first pass, but the first pass should always be right to left, it leaves 0.5mm for the final clean up left to right.
Alvy - are you using the Festool template?
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Post by mafellme on Aug 28, 2020 8:11:11 GMT -5
Seriously, though.... I cringe when I see fitters cutting chipboard-laminate worktops with way too much depth-per-pass, the cutter chattering with flex/vibration, and the router spindle bearings screaming in protest, and the armature sparking excessively against the carbon brushes. We've all seen it.
I like to do a shallow (8-10mm) pass, then carefully jigsaw down the middle of that, and then continue to remove the remainder of the waste material with the router. It's just as fast and it's safer, quieter, and with less wear & tear to the cutter and router. Everyone's a winner!
What If I told you, I use £60-70 spiral solid carbide cutters with special collet (12mm, not half inch)?
Then I'd say you are a weirdo for using CNC bits in a hand-router, but I don't blame you for doing so, as spiral cutters can massively reduce stress on the router, improve cleanliness of the cut, and minimise noise during cutting. They make a lot of sense for working with high pressure solid laminate type materials. Then again, there are quite a few people who would contend that PCD tooling is the best option.
The cost tends to be quite prohibitive, though.
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Post by mafellme on Aug 28, 2020 8:26:14 GMT -5
There are a lot of worktop fitters who don't even know how to use the jig properly. It's been a long time since I did laminate tops, but, full depth plunge, cut in the first 6mm of top pushing the router into the jig (this stops blow out), then start at the right hand end of the jig and pull the router towards you cut a third through, then two subsequent passes to complete the cut - final cut full depth going left to right pushing into the jig, this is the clean up cut. I've seen enough guys trying to fight the router by doing all the cuts left to right as they go through the passes . I also used to jigsaw off after the first pass, but the first pass should always be right to left, it leaves 0.5mm for the final clean up left to right. Alvy - are you using the Festool template?
I don't fully understand your explanation (difficult to explain such tasks using just text), but I completely agree with you about doing a final pass that skims the entire joint.
I don't know what country you're in, but in the UK, we tend to use jigs designed for a router with a 30mm guide bush in the baseplate. I don't remember which company manufactured my jig (it wasn't Trend or Unika), but it has guide paths that are machined to about 31mm, which allows me to make all my cuts whilst deliberately pressuring my router to rub against the right-hand side of the jig (the joint face being on the left hand side of the cutter, in this example). Then, when the entire joint is cut, I can do one final sweep whilst pressuring my router to rub against the LEFT hand side of the jig path, thus achieving a nice clean final skim of the joint. In this circumstance, I don't need to fight the cutters tendency to snatch the router to the left hand side of the jig, because I do my first cut to an easy shallow depth of 8-10mm, then jigsaw the bulk out of the way, then the final skim is easy-peasy.
There's nearly always more than one way to do a task, and tradespeople seem to revel in putting their own unique spin on each task. I suppose it's a way of being creative aside from the creativity of the actual workpiece itself that's being produced.
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Post by aas on Aug 28, 2020 8:52:31 GMT -5
Yes you're pretty much understanding - if we take the orientation you are using, you do the first cuts against the right, but coming towards you. The router wants to pull into the template, so if you are trying to 'fight' the router and hold it against the right side, it can bite and push over to the left. This leaves the last 0,5mm or 1mm on the left for the clean up. (So in my description, I was on the end of the worktop running the final pass left to right). It's the full depth clean cut to start which is important, because you are pulling towards you, you will come out the front of the worktop, so this stops blowout.
You'll have to try it sometime on a scrap, it's so much easier.
I have a UK made Freud jig somewhere (I think it was the best of the basic jigs at the time) and used to buy in 1/2" bits as they are so cheap over there. If ever I have to do these laminate worktops again, I will get in the Festool template. |
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Post by aas on Aug 28, 2020 8:53:54 GMT -5
Here I found a video for you -
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Post by mafellme on Aug 28, 2020 8:56:57 GMT -5
mmmm... I never liked the look of the Festool jig.
Seems like it's trying to be clever just for the sake of being clever and making the Festool-faithful happy (that's not aimed at you, just speaking of it generally)
But I get what you mean about the method of a full-depth cut into the front edge, and then resuming shallow passes from the rear, forwards. I don't agree with that philosophy, but I acknowledge that it's viable.
"Many roads lead to Rome", and "To each his own..."
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Post by aas on Aug 28, 2020 11:50:33 GMT -5
Check out the Youtube video I linked, he shows it - I never used to do like that, started a few years back after learning this method (since then mainly solid surface) - trust me it works.
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 28, 2020 12:02:54 GMT -5
Alvy - are you using the Festool template? Not ever m8! Old / traditional / standard 40mm worktops either normal template or... I use template to make new template out of 12mm mdf. Most templates creates imperfect 25° angle (and front lip) connection... But, if I'm not going "an4l", just do 2 passes to cut, tap with a mallet, clean up cut and done. Compressed plastic (Minerva- Trespa etc) I do straight joints, unless differently specified and sinks, round overs (drain grooves with simple straight ed ge) with router at slowest possible speed... And nightmare if somebody demands (shallow) pull bolts rebating units and half thickness again with router |
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 28, 2020 12:08:18 GMT -5
What If I told you, I use £60-70 spiral solid carbide cutters with special collet (12mm, not half inch)?
Then I'd say you are a weirdo....
The cost tends to be quite prohibitive, though.
Yes, spot on! I'm a weirdo, but lets say for one typical kitchen with 3 mason joints, one sink and maybe one one round end I'll go through 2-3 cutters at £15 each... Which is very near one solid cutter needed for the same amount of meterage, but faster! However, spiral cutters simply don't work on solid block at all, so it's swapping back to the straight cutters etc |
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Post by aas on Aug 28, 2020 13:25:23 GMT -5
Alvy - are you using the Festool template? Not ever m8! Ah it was because you said you use a 12mm cutter, I thought UK was all 1/2" and Festool 12mm. |
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 28, 2020 13:55:43 GMT -5
Ah it was because you said you use a 12mm cutter, I thought UK was all 1/2" and Festool 12mm. Bit of "mission" to get 12mm collet for any 1/2" router (but FestT) at some considerable expense, I found one, whilst FesT in a box cones with both 1/2" and 12mm collets. On that note here 8mm is almost "extinct" standard, whilst in Europe it's near most popular. "Funny" as how old imperial standard of 1/4" and 1/2" not metric become as/is worldwide standard... |
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Post by aas on Aug 29, 2020 0:14:21 GMT -5
What does the LO65 come with in UK, here it comes with an 8mm - weird for a 2600w router! I had the big triton in a table, it came with 1/4" and 1/2" collets as did another router I purchased from UK (you are spoilt with low prices there!) - I still have some imperial cutters, but trying to switch to 8mm and 12mm as they wear out.
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 29, 2020 3:06:18 GMT -5
What does the LO65 come with in UK, here it comes with an 8mm - weird for a 2600w router! I had the big triton in a table, it came with 1/4" and 1/2" collets as did another router I purchased from UK (you are spoilt with low prices there!) - I still have some imperial cutters, but trying to switch to 8mm and 12mm as they wear out. Pardon me, can you get 12mm shank cutters? |
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Post by aas on Aug 29, 2020 5:12:09 GMT -5
I don't know about UK, I guess not too much. But in Europe : Bosch, CMT, Festool to name a few, do cutters in 12mm. I've also ordered in some speciality cutters from Titman, made in UK - 12mm shank... Trend also do 12mm. I guess it's what is in stock in the stores over there is 1/4" or 1/2" - in stock here is usually 8mm which is suitable for most work I guess.
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