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Post by huntsgemein on Aug 24, 2020 11:22:04 GMT -5
OK. I understand better now: maybe I should've called my schoolboy AngloDeutsch more correctly ScheisseDeutsch!
Bobbie Bosch isn't joining the CAS. Instead, they've created not one, but TWO different & competing alliances! So instead of creating a type of UN of cordless power tools, they've instead created some sort of "Nato vs Ostbloc" standoff. Yes, you can join my own alliance, as long as it's ONLY mine, not the competitors'. Wankers.
It's a pity really. In some products, I consider the Robert Bosch blue range of tools to be best-in-class for cordless tools. Their current cordless Angle Grinders, SDS Hammer range & Recipro Saws are probably the best that I've ever used. In the same way that Metabo makes a superior Cordless drill range, & Mafell is at the top of the game in cordless Saws.
At least 3 of the Bosch ProCore partners are LED floodlight manufacturers. That's more or less all there is to date, folks!
In the meantime there's some ongoing negotiations with the REAL Cordless Alliance. They're talking big about 8 new partners (to make up their claimed 25) by the end of the year. Let the conjecture begin: I'm tipping Fein, maybe Kress (if they can remain a viable economic entity in the interim), maybe Perles (Swiss, but currently made in Slovenia) & then........ any guesses? Mirka? Rupes? Indasa?
Maybe Festool? Joke! I'm seriously not serious, but if ever a manufacture needed an appropriate shakeup of their rather woefully small & inadequate cordless range it's Festool/Protool/Narex. Not going to happen, I know. I doubt that the corpulent inflated egos of TTS Tooltechnic's board would or even could admit to the company's cordless shortcomings.
My best guess is that the balance of new partners will, as with the later additions to the CAS, be smaller niche manufacturers who have previously specialised in mains-powered tools, but latterly require cordless alternative technology to remain competitive in the marketplace. Which means yet more relatively obscure Euro-centric small-medium enterprise players on the fringes of power tool manufacture. These SMEs will benefit most from saving the crippling cost of new cordless R&D expenditure by adopting pre-existing licenced cordless EC motor & battery technology. If so then their cordless products will be few, expensive & probably very high quality.
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Post by mafellme on Aug 24, 2020 12:05:16 GMT -5
Bobbie Bosch isn't joining the CAS. Instead, they've created not one, but TWO different & competing alliances! So instead of creating a type of UN of cordless power tools, they've instead created some sort of "Nato vs Ostbloc" standoff. Yes, you can join my own alliance, as long as it's ONLY mine, not the competitors'. Wankers.
I'm not a vindictive person, but, in this particular instance, I rather hope Bosch trip and fall on their own sword, with this self-serving attempt to scupper CAS. Not for my own satisfaction but simply because I perceive that they deserve to fail in their disingenuous aims, and deserve to learn an uncomfortable lesson from behaving like that.
Mirka would be interesting, although, paradoxically, my fave sander (DEROS) would be worsened by adding a battery, not bettered, given that it's so compact and lightweight.
I really am hoping Fein join the party, as I'm on the cusp of getting a Supercut (probably even before I get a Metabo renovation grinder or variable-low-speed grinder).
In light of the fact that we're seeing some renewed attempts at cordless dust extractors, I suppose it's not crazy to wonder if Nilfisk or Karcher might show some interest in CAS, at some point.
It would be shocking if a major player licensed CAS - turns out it won't be Bosch, but can you imagine if DeWalt, Makita, or Milwaukee did? I honestly don't think that will happen, for multiple reasons, and one of those reasons is that I suspect there may secretly be some German governmental sponsorship (not necessarily monetarily) of the CAS initiative (right from it's earliest inception) as a means of boosting competitiveness and resiliance of German powertool manufacturing companies. If my suspicion about that is correct, then I would anticipate by far the majority of CAS members to be German or at least central European.
Veering off, momentarily, on a fairly wild tangent, it occurs to me that there are MANY excellent German hi-fi manufacturers. It seems to me that quite a few of these have taken on bespoke projects for various car manufacturers, in recent years (Burmester, etc.). Is it really going too far to suggest that there may be an opportunity for one of these firms to create a properly-decent-sounding CAS-powered site audio player (or at least CAS-powered active speakers, to be connected to a smartphone or DAP)? Almost every site radio I've ever heard from the likes of Milwaukee, Makita, etc., sounds truly bloody awful - absurdly muffled and boxy, like the cheapest, cheapest, cheapest pair of crap speakers from a 1980s off-label midi system. If plenty of people are willing to drop a thousand euros on a CAS powertool, almost a thousand euros on a smartphone, many hundreds (or even 2000-4000) euros on a dedicated pocket digital audio player, and 2 or 3 hundred Euros on a DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee etc. site radio, then I'm sure there are enough people willing to stretch to 500-700 euros for a CAS-powered audio system they can use on site that sounds an order of magnitude better than what's currently available from the major powertool vendors.
I'm not suggesting they'd sell by the tens of thousands, but I reckon there's a niche with enough potential to make it worthwhile, for a company that really knows how to engineer good sound from sanely-priced but decent quality components.
The cordless tool market is already quite saturated, but there are certainly many niches yet to be filled by enterprising companies with diverse skillsets.
Can you imagine the floods of green koolaid being puked and snorted out of the noses of the groupies, around the globe? It'd be utter carnage! ;-)
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Post by aas on Aug 24, 2020 15:11:02 GMT -5
I'm not a vindictive person, but, in this particular instance, I rather hope Bosch trip and fall on their own sword, with this self-serving attempt to scupper CAS. Not for my own satisfaction but simply because I perceive that they deserve to fail in their disingenuous aims, and deserve to learn an uncomfortable lesson from behaving like that.
To be fair, I think that Bosch are probably not trying to scupper the CAS, merely a big 'damn' why didn't we think of that. They do have a big pro user base who would not be happy if they turned round and changed direction - they are also too big to be joining the young upstarts!.. same with Festool - these large corporate entities have their own road map that they're sticking to.
Fein, yes please - I'll happily sell my brand new multimaster and grinder to get the new CAS ones!
Lamello - a decent cordless biscuit joiner would be great. Hilti - a long shot of course. Hunstgemein has mentioned a few other contenders.
I think the CAS is ideal for smaller and niche market manufacturers to sell to a larger audience - I'm only considering a cordless Collomix because of the CAS; I only purchased the Rothenberger press-tool because of the CAS - it helps swing decisions and make sales. The big boys have their fan-boys and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future.
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Post by jonathan on Aug 24, 2020 16:16:55 GMT -5
Unfortunately, like others have mentioned before, Bosch is only starting it's own CAS thing.
I saw a clip of the announcement where a bunch of execs were lined up, and when asked the very question why don't they join the initiative already started by Metabo there was some hesitation and then one of the execs gave the answer that bosch has X million of tools already in circulation and they want to keep backward compatibility etc etc
You know, the usual answers...
I saw a pretty lenghty livestream video of the new tools coming out too. I can't seem to find it right now, it seems to have been removed from YouTube again.
The new plunge saw is interesting because of it's depth of cut. It's not as refined as a Mafell or Festool in terms of ergonomics and adjustments, but it's good they at least have one in their line-up now.
They're coming out with a very interesting universal bluetooth auto start solution for the vacuum. It looks to be a bluetooth adapter you plug in the wall socket in which you plug your vacuum. Looked nice. MSRP would be very cheap they said.
They also demoed the rebranded Steinel heatgun and there were some other tools too, but these are the ones i remember.
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 24, 2020 17:00:22 GMT -5
Sounds like Britain and Brexit, might work out for the better, might not, might have some benefit, but most importantly is to do grand gesture to distance from (let's face it way better tools) competition....
Good luck for the Bosch (fake CAS), but I wish better luck to smaller manufacturers and shall buy tools in such preference in the future.
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Post by huntsgemein on Aug 24, 2020 22:52:21 GMT -5
Back to the original topic of conversation.
I've never been much of a fan of Metabo's circular saws. Either corded or cordless. Most seem to be more or less......ordinary. The only corded one that I've owned myself was actually quite good: KSE 55 Vario Plus. It was marketed as a "Combination" Plunge/Pendulum saw. Made in Germany, it was a small, precision tracksaw, that unfortunately utilises the "wrong" old-style guiderails from Metabo's catalogue. Nothing wrong with this per se, but just a bit "primitive" in comparison to the far superior Bosch/Mafell FSN system. Fitted with 160mm blades, it's also rather limited in capacity.
Metabo's KSE 55 Vario Plus is tiny, extremely lightweight in cast Magnesium rather than the more common Aluminium & had an extremely useful remote pendulum retraction mechanism. This tool has a relatively precision feel in comparison to the rest of the range. It was also expensive, perhaps explaining at least in part its lack of success in the marketplace. For me, Mafell/Bosch just seem to do it.... better. Specifically their great FSN guiderail system, plus the power & performance.
My only cordless Metabo saw, an early Millennial 18v Ni-Cad powered example was pretty gutless in the same way as all competitors were in those days. I ended up with a 36V Bosch saw as the only viable alternative available to me at the time.
From other's anecdotal evidence, Metabo's current cordless saw range is much less robust or precise in operation. This doesn't in any way represent Metabo's aim to be a serious manufacturer of quality circular saws. The changeover from indigenous to far eastern manufacture hasn't done the company any favours either. Seemingly, if one is being "serious" in the need to have a quality cordless saw for both precise & professional work then there's a requirement to look elsewhere in the CAS - namely Mafell.
So whilst the new KT18 LTX 66 BL superficially looks like a winner, I'd be reticent to purchase without getting a few positive user reports. I'd also like to know its country of manufacture: given Metabo's existing track record on saws, I consider that it's more important than not. Even then, given the proven performance of the Mafell alternative, I'm still dubious.
So, how about it Henrik? Are you willing to be the forum's guinea-pig yet again? Given that you're such a good customer, can you convince the powers that be to issue you a loaner?
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 25, 2020 11:14:11 GMT -5
one quality European maker, I'd wish to join CAS would be Virutex, as lately (out of desperation to cheap made in china, big names branded tools) nearly eliminated them and they seem to have stuck their badge on few cordless tools.
as it comes to routers, planers, sanders they are on almost the same level as Mafell, but new cordless range or plunge saws are copies or even made in china...
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Post by aas on Aug 25, 2020 15:48:28 GMT -5
one quality European maker, I'd wish to join CAS would be Virutex, as lately (out of desperation to cheap made in china, big names branded tools) nearly eliminated them and they seem to have stuck their badge on few cordless tools. as it comes to routers, planers, sanders they are on almost the same level as Mafell, but new cordless range or plunge saws are copies or even made in china... I have quite a few Virutex tools - they are a long way behind Mafell and Festool in the design, refinement and quality departments - they do have some very unique inventive tools though. |
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Post by aas on Aug 25, 2020 16:42:53 GMT -5
So whilst the new KT18 LTX 66 BL superficially looks like a winner, I'd be reticent to purchase without getting a few positive user reports. ... after my experience with Metabo saws, if I read positive reports I would assume they didn't have a clue what they're talking about or being paid! |
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Post by skinee(travelling) on Aug 27, 2020 5:45:48 GMT -5
So whilst the new KT18 LTX 66 BL superficially looks like a winner, I'd be reticent to purchase without getting a few positive user reports. ... after my experience with Metabo saws, if I read positive reports I would assume they didn't have a clue what they're talking about or being paid! yes exactly given the experience of the gutless wonder that is the ltx 57 |
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Post by aas on Aug 27, 2020 7:19:41 GMT -5
I sold mine!.. got more than I paid for it!
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 27, 2020 15:33:20 GMT -5
Metabo is the same as the most of the other big brands trying to make savings by making them in CPR and only having few tools final assembly in Europe...
My 20 year old Router, made in Germany still goes as strong as anything
my old planer, even though assembled in Germany, but from Chinese components packed up....
my current (one of few) jigsaw is made in China, cheap as chips, but still works as good as most other jigsaws of the similar class branded saws... (not even comparing to P1CC), but moral of the story
"tools, that are made in Europe- always better quality, than ones are made in the east, however, they do NOT make money to manufacturers, they are simply out-priced by competition."
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Post by mafellme on Aug 27, 2020 15:59:07 GMT -5
My Trend T9E router is close to 20yrs old and still going strong www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/trend/content/content_detail.php?record_type=Compatibility&id=1472- it's not the (excellent) T10/T11 that was made by Elu, then acquired & rebranded as DeWalt, and then additionally rebranded in small quantities with a few adjuster variations, by Trend. Mine is slightly earlier than that, and I'm almost 100% certain it was manufactured by Metabo. It's served me well, albeit with one change of spindle bearings during its lifetime, but I have treated it with respect and I don't cut 40mm/50mm kitchen worktops with it in just 1 or 2 passes, like many cowboy chippies. Because of recent events, supply of many powertools (and associated accessories) made in PRC have dried-up, so it will be interesting to see if this boosts sales of European and USA manufactured powertools (at least in the short/medium term). However, I find it extremely ironic that some European powertool makers may actually also be struggling to meet supply quotas for models in their line-ups that they themselves have been quietly outsourcing to far east factories. Perhaps this vulnerability will teach them a valuable lesson - someone famous and powerful in the USA has publicly highlighted this aspect of global manufacturing and global commerce, in recent months, pointing out, in no uncertain terms, that western countries should be nurturing their domestic manufacturing capabilities, rather than short-sightedly outsourcing so much of it to other countries. |
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 27, 2020 16:19:11 GMT -5
My Trend T9E router is close to 20yrs old and still going strong www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/trend/content/content_detail.php?record_type=Compatibility&id=1472- it's not the (excellent) T10/T11 that was made by Elu, then acquired & rebranded as DeWalt, and then additionally rebranded in small quantities with a few adjuster variations, by Trend. Mine is slightly earlier than that, and I'm almost 100% certain it was manufactured by Metabo. agreed!- it's mine Metabo in black pants It's served me well, albeit with one change of spindle bearings during its lifetime, but I have treated it with respect and I don't cut 40mm/50mm kitchen worktops with it in just 1 or 2 passes, like many cowboy chippies.Was you spying on me? signed cowboy chippy |
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Post by mafellme on Aug 27, 2020 16:57:44 GMT -5
My Trend T9E router is close to 20yrs old and still going strong www.trend-uk.com/en/UK/trend/content/content_detail.php?record_type=Compatibility&id=1472- it's not the (excellent) T10/T11 that was made by Elu, then acquired & rebranded as DeWalt, and then additionally rebranded in small quantities with a few adjuster variations, by Trend. Mine is slightly earlier than that, and I'm almost 100% certain it was manufactured by Metabo. agreed!- it's mine Metabo in black pantsIt's served me well, albeit with one change of spindle bearings during its lifetime, but I have treated it with respect and I don't cut 40mm/50mm kitchen worktops with it in just 1 or 2 passes, like many cowboy chippies.Was you spying on me? signed cowboy chippy
Seriously, though.... I cringe when I see fitters cutting chipboard-laminate worktops with way too much depth-per-pass, the cutter chattering with flex/vibration, and the router spindle bearings screaming in protest, and the armature sparking excessively against the carbon brushes. We've all seen it.
I like to do a shallow (8-10mm) pass, then carefully jigsaw down the middle of that, and then continue to remove the remainder of the waste material with the router. It's just as fast and it's safer, quieter, and with less wear & tear to the cutter and router. Everyone's a winner!
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