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Post by hecon5 on May 19, 2020 5:47:24 GMT -5
So, I'm still on the fence about my next vacuum. I'm in the US, so the EU fancy L/M/H rating system doesn't help me much (but gosh it'd be nice if the US would adopt that instead of wondering if the "HEPA" filter on this vacuum actually means it's filtering out the nasties). Normally, I'd consider not using the HEPA filter, but since the place I am I'm nearly guaranteed to run into lead paint / lead whatever (and possibly Asbestos, but only trace amounts) and I'd like not to be sued / fined, and would very much like to ensure I'm not spewing lead in any case.
I'm presently looking at the Mafell S35, Nilfisk 44-21 HEPA, and the Metabo ACP35 (157cfm variant), in that order. I've got a local vacuum dealer that is willing to cut me a pretty decent deal on the Nilfisk (~$600), but the Mafell unit looks like its filter, airflow, and hose might be nicer, so it's quite nearly a tie.
My biggest concerns are spreading lead around in an old house when I drill into the siding / interior. While I'm not planning to do major RRP work (yet), I'd like to ensure that the vacuum I'm getting is at least certified for it, just in case someone gets extra curious / concerned and has OSHA pay me a visit.
Anyway; does anyone know if the Mafell S35 is specifically allowed for RRP/ certified by them to be RRP compliant? On paper, the specs of the filter that's provided are well above the minimums, but the last thing I want is to find out they've pulled a Milwaukee and said it's not...
It looks like the ongoing maintenance of the Mafell unit is a good bit higher (bags/filters), but I'm willing to pay the premium for premium tools; literally my only hang up on the Mafell is whether it's RRP compliant. If it's not...Nilfisk it is!
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Post by aas on May 19, 2020 23:33:50 GMT -5
Can you get Starmix over there?.. they do a 1200w asbestos vac - if you 'might' run into it at some point, then you need to have a vac capable of dealing with it. I have the iPulse 'H', 1600w - no regrets, excellent vac.
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Post by hecon5 on May 20, 2020 5:59:08 GMT -5
I wish! Can't seem to find a 120/110 Version that can be shipped here and I don't feel like installing 220 outlets wherever I go.
The Mafell & Metabo seem to be the closest equals I can find; the Nilfisk is the filter equal of the EU H Class...kind of (the airflow is different, I think because of the motor being a different US variant), though I'm rather confused that Nilfisk's US user manual is lumped in with the "L" class vacuums and not the M/H class.
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Post by kraftt on May 20, 2020 11:56:52 GMT -5
I think I remember when I went looking for the ‘gotchas’ in that FLEX sale deal, concerned it might be lacking fundamentally compared to blue versions, I was told the only difference between the L & M class (at least for Nilfisk/Rebrands) was that the M class was the same vacuum, same filtration options, but with an audible & visible alarm added for when suction drops below a certain value. The idea being Low / Medium / High ‘classes’ (or maybe H referred to ‘H’epa, I can’t remember). Without the flow sensor they only guarantee or certify the vacuums performance to a certain level, ‘L’ ow, knowing there will be times you run it with less than great flow due to hose obstructions / full bags / clogged filters. Then adding a flow sensor, an led light, and a buzzer they can justify that they warned you and rate the vacuums performance under optimum parameters and give it a ‘M’ edium classification. How they get the ‘H’ igh classification is a mystery to me because when looking for the best prices for replacement HEPA filters and the pleated main filters there were only the same choices. Meaning unless there is an even better HEPA filter (like a ULPA or something) running an ‘L’ class vac should give same performance as the ‘H’ class when HEPA is installed and clean. So it may have more to do with Euro requirements that there be a second led light installed and lit proving a HEPA filter is in place for both the user & inspector. Guessing they add a little switch that gets depressed when the HEPA is installed in order to light the led (??) Oddly the Nilfisk Attix HEPA filter is listed online at 99.97% efficient, while the Nilfisk HEPA supplied with my FLEX is rated as 99.99% efficient (photo below). btw - Nilfisk also recommended I use filter bags in addition to main & HEPA filters for RRP work, mainly to reduce contact with media when emptying. Personally I’ve found that the safest method for me is to face downwind on a windy day and just throw the tub contents up in the air. So, for some part, these classification stickers, audible buzzer, flow sensor, HEPA installed indicator light (?), are for jurisdictions requiring and policing them and not necessarily an indicator of performance.  |
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Post by hecon5 on May 20, 2020 12:26:15 GMT -5
kraftt, your findings are identical to what I've discovered. One very odd thing I've noticed is that the filter is certified for 100CFM (Nilfisk sent me a similar image of their filter certs when I became flustered and asked, so glad to know they line up at least), vs the vacuum is rated at 148CFM... While the hose will definitely restrict things down (even with a 50mm or bigger hose), the math doesn't seem to make sense. Same thing with the Starmix; they claim H14 (>99.997%) but the test is performed at some nominally reduced rate from the vacuum's advertised CFM. Since airflow above the tested value will reduce the actual efficiency, perhaps that's why they test to 99.99% for engineering margins (damn engineers!). Speaking of gotchas: I saw a video of the Starmix's filter cleaning in operation, and boy golly it shakes the heck out of that thing. How does it manage to keep a good seal & not allow bypass??
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Post by kraftt on May 20, 2020 13:14:51 GMT -5
Online the FLEX VCE 33/44 listed equal values for ‘Max Airflow’ / ‘Max Vacuum’ for EU/CH/US/CN across the board regardless of voltage. Thought it must be a typo then, but when the printed manual in the box came it listed same values. It still should be a typo because power listed is lower vs 240v.
The only thing that could compensate is that the motors are speed controlled from the PCB and the Flex’s boards have a fairly new/modern revision #er.
As I mentioned elsewhere, I would love to know how Starmix makes their HEPA filters last when they also have to do double duty of shaking off the caked dust. There’s either an rugged outer pre-filter pleat protecting the HEPA pleats behind it or they tell you later that you should be only using it with a fleece bag for longevity (?)
If you get one it would be great to see some in depth photos and get your observations. And if you’re feeling brave maybe get a photo of the circuit board.
I guess the last question for you will be what will any upcoming holiday deals be like taking current circumstances into consideration.
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Post by hecon5 on May 20, 2020 13:23:10 GMT -5
I'm usually rather brave; probably braver than I should be. There's a graveyard of stuff I've murderated in the guise of learning with my soldering iron/tools because "I wonder if I do this..." happened. :/ Thankfully, at this exact moment, I've got time to sit on things and wait for awesome deals, so pontificate and thinking it to death is the course I've chosen for the moment. It does seem like there's no bad choice, overall, but wanting to optimize to perfection and having the time means down the rabbit hole we go! As to the Starmix: I did read somewhere that their HEPA filters are indeed multiple layers. They even used to sell a paper cover for a 2 iterations ago version, but did away with it in favor of the "nano" coating (aka probably PTFE or whatever Gore imitation they're using). If I can find where I saw it, I'll link it.
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Post by kraftt on May 20, 2020 17:10:12 GMT -5
(devils advocate):
Sort of analogous to whole-house water filters. Change every 6 months to a year depending on size duration / frequency of use. Though when anyone takes a shower, or flushes the toilet the filter gets used vs fitting a filter under the kitchen sink to just feed faucet and fridge.
Obviously running Hepa all the time is best. But using the water filter analogy, if you really don’t need Hepa all the time, you’re stuck with putting hours on those filters no matter what you run through the hose. Or carry a standard filter pair to swap out.
Under heavy use, at $234 a pair, someone could go through more filters in a year & a half than the vacuum cost. At that point it would be an ink-jet printer.
I like wearing a mask as a guarantee when the dust flies so I only install the Hepa if it’s required, or if I’m inside a finished home. This option requires removing 4 screws but the trade off is less items to carry plus the outside of the Hepa is free from caked dust.
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Post by Eoj on May 20, 2020 19:20:06 GMT -5
link for vac information.
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Post by aas on May 21, 2020 6:10:29 GMT -5
The Starmix filters on the 'H' (which is for High, not HEPA) are excellent quality. I've used for concrete grinding and plaster sanding - probably two of the worst things for a filter. The shaking is so violent it keeps them clean. You can also brush them out, blow them out or wash them I believe, although I've not done the latter.
I've not checked if they are the same filter on the 'L' or 'M'. I ended up opening the vac up and unplugging the beeper - drove me nuts!
After a bit of research for my 3rd vac, I got a new Festool CTL Mini - I checked part numbers, no difference on the filter to the 'M', I do NOT need anymore beeping!.. handy having a vac with a remote for cordless tools and general laziness!.. if Starmix did a simple remote like this, I'd have got another Starmix. I don't have time to faff around making a remote up; I sell my tools once they are 2 or 3 years old, normally I get almost what I paid for them (I buy in Germany cheap, I sell in France where everything is VERY expensive), so a modded tool I would lose money. Case in point - I just sold my 2015 CTL Midi for the same price I got the new CTL Mini - zero cost for me for a brand new tool!
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Post by hecon5 on May 21, 2020 6:14:21 GMT -5
That google search there is a deep hole, Eoj, and is how I found this place.  kraftt, I agree; replacing filters every 6 months would be cost prohibitive, in any environment unless you're doing full on asbestos abatement work (I'm not) where you can just charge it to the customer as part of the "you don't wanna die, do you?" fee. It's also funny, I just had that same water filter discussion with a prospective client. ... I have the iPulse 'H', 1600w - no regrets, excellent vac. , how often do you find you need to replace your filters? Like I mentioned before, the spectrum of "allowable dirt on the 'clean' side" ranges from "tossed downwind  " to "after the job, bag the vacuum and toss it in with the rest of the asbestos, too". From everything I've found (thus far), the Starmix (Metabo/Mafell) filters do seem to last 2-3 years. Talking with Jeff at Timberland Tools, he says that he's not sold that many filters, and the ones that he did, they were doing foolish things like leaving the auto-clean off and cutting concrete continuously; not my use case. Was hoping for someone who has a Starmix variant to verify their replacement regimen (because like you, users could just be buying filters from another vendor because they're the same or close enough).
As to the Nilfisk, found the same thing about it's filters, probably because of the PTFE pre-filter. I do like respirators for myself; I also want to cut down on stuff that gets in the air in the first place. Like yourself, I do actually plan to run two vacuums (maybe more as needed) a ShopVac with a bag/filter for unfinished wood/stuff I know isn't nasty for lots of chips/stuff/whatever, and a new one that I can use without even worrying that stuff is going to escape. This will cut down on filter hours, hopefully to a point where it's not cost prohibitive to run HEPA 100%. |
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Post by hecon5 on May 21, 2020 6:16:39 GMT -5
I ended up opening the vac up and unplugging the beeper - drove me nuts!
In NA, the vacuums don't come with that-probably because of our wild west approach to safety. I'd be cool with a light, so I can glance over when I know the hose is clear & see if it's still good.
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Post by kraftt on May 21, 2020 12:14:05 GMT -5
3 vacs seems to be the minimum for me right now. Big vac for rough stuff outside and in, keeping excessive dust off of driveways etc, HEPA for interior & dB levels, and tiny vac for ease on quick jobs. Without a .5 micron fleece bag, or better, a shop-vac it’s useless. Remotes are a must on all of them.
(I’m one to talk, if I ever bothered to add up my invoices for the amount of fleece bags I go through for that shop-vac I might have to take a knee).
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Post by aas on May 21, 2020 15:24:10 GMT -5
aas , how often do you find you need to replace your filters?
Still on the original filters that came with the vac, given them some good cleaning a few times though |
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Post by aas on May 21, 2020 15:28:45 GMT -5
... for unfinished wood/stuff I know isn't nasty No real way of 'knowing'... what is considered nasty now, was considered harmless 10 years ago... fast forward 10 years from now, your harmless dust will be on a list of 'nasty' somewhere.
If you're going to use a vac - use a decent one.
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" to "after the job, bag the vacuum and toss it in with the rest of the asbestos, too". From everything I've found (thus far), the Starmix (Metabo/Mafell) filters do seem to last 2-3 years. Talking with Jeff at Timberland Tools, he says that he's not sold that many filters, and the ones that he did, they were doing foolish things like leaving the auto-clean off and cutting concrete continuously; not my use case. Was hoping for someone who has a Starmix variant to verify their replacement regimen (because like you, users could just be buying filters from another vendor because they're the same or close enough).