kozn
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by kozn on Jul 24, 2020 9:11:05 GMT -5
What you are explaining is multivolt batteries, which makes sense. 2times 5cells in series (18v) get mechanically switched to 10cells in series =36v. But a 12v battery has 3cells in series. So if you have 2x 3cells for 12v (or 10.8v nominal voltage) that would give you 24v (21.6v nominal voltage) when all cells or switched in series. Doesn't make sense to me to use them in an 18v tool unless there's a buck converter somewhere in between to convert the 21.6v to 18v so the max rpm stays the same. Or they are using LiFePo cells that have a lower nominal and max. voltage but keep keep their nominal voltage under load way longer than the commonly used Li cells. I know Dewalt used them for sometime in their packs.
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Post by aas on Jul 24, 2020 13:11:41 GMT -5
If you take the Fein Supercut as an example - it's pretty heavy with a 6ah battery, but sometimes doing agressive work, gloves on it's not a problem; but say I need to do a fine detail cut-out, I may find the much lighter 12v battery is more comfortable to work with, and being fine work, it doesn't need all the power of the 18v. I think it's a great idea - and for info I don't have any Fein 12v tools, I bought the batteries to have a small lightweight tool without buying the 12v version too.
Same idea with the drill, for most my drilling purposes, I do not need full on power, but refinement and balance. Having the option to put an 18v in for more power is great.
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Post by aas on Jul 24, 2020 13:13:05 GMT -5
What you are explaining is multivolt batteries, Fein are not doing Multivolt in the same sense as DeWalt / Hikoki - on 12v the tools are slower.
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kozn
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by kozn on Jul 24, 2020 13:23:35 GMT -5
Right now it makes sense.
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Post by matchesder on Sept 18, 2020 14:32:22 GMT -5
I bought the ASCM 12 a while ago. Back than, it was about the biggest 12 V class drill. But 4 speed up to 2500 rpm with relatively high torque. There were 18 V drills about the same size.
Now Fein has a ASCM 18 QSW. Which is basically the 12 but intended for 18 V batts. The ratings are the same. So a quiet small 18 V drill. I wonder if the rpm and torque drops when 12 V batts are used. If the regular 12 V can do it, maybe the 18 V does not need the power the batt can deliver and is able to perform the same with 12 V. I wonder how they do it. It is possible that the motor runs with the lower voltage all the time and with 18 V the pwm is adjusted accordingly.
Looking at the spare part numbers, the stator is the same. Just different electronic.
They have a few attractive promotions at the time (at least in Germany).
Metabo has the autobalancer system which is intended to reduce vibration and also wear of the disc.
I have a Multimaster that is well balanced with the 2.5 Ah batt. I wouldn’t like it as much with the bulkier batt. Unfortunately pre multi volt.
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Post by huntsgemein on Sept 19, 2020 11:24:39 GMT -5
ALL branded cordless systems will have their limitations. From too-few tools: Festo & perhaps Fein, to perhaps marginal performance: maybe Ryobi & other "cheapies", maybe a reputation for unreliability: Milwaukee et.al., to sub-par battery performance: Makita.
Makita, Milwaukee & Hitachi-Koki seem to have huge ranges covering all possible contingencies (& then some - Cordless Coffee Maker - any takers??), yet still there's always compromises to be made. If I worked construction, then I'd be packing Makita. Mid-priced good quality tools with unrivalled after-sales service, plus the best range of Impact Drivers (still?).
If I was still doing Commercial & Industrial Electrical installation then it'd be Bosch due to their clearly superior double-whammy of the best Cordless Grinders & SDS Hammers in the business. Bosch & maybe Milwaukee still make the best Cordless Recipro saws around, too.
For heavy construction, maybe the new small range of Milwaukee 72V uber-duty tools are required.
Since I've retired, I really like the CAS system. The (Mafell, but not Metabo) saws are great, Metabo's drills are the best (currently using 3-speed drill-only, tapper & 12V 2-speed), SDS's & Grinders are sort-of-OK (have both 18 & 36V), Impact is good, but not as great as the best, & I have access to extremely useful alternate tools (Rothenberger Compact TT Plumbing press) that use industry-standard, readily available fittings. The single charger system fits the whole system & both sizes (18 & 12V) of batteries. So it's convenient.
Let's not forget either that the CAS still uses the world's best battery system, for all their flawed sliding reluctance, release buttons & any other minor inconveniences. So minor that I personally consider them trivialities.
Sure, there's better Grinders out there, & SDS, Impact Drivers, Multitools etc. So it's a compromise. Having such excellent quality (Metabo) Drills & (Mafell) Saws makes up for many perceived flaws of some other tools. If I wanted to sand cordless all day (as if anybody would!) then I'd be forced to use Festool's little system. If I was into precision installation work, then it'd have to be either the Fein or maybe Bosch range of cordless Starlock Supercuts &/or Multimasters together with both their best-quality & flawed range of other tools.
I absolutely detest using a multitude of battery & tool platforms. I currently have 2 CAS sizes, 12 & 18V, Bosch 36v garden tools (mower, hedge trimmer & rubbish mini-chainsaw) plus old 36v circular & recipro saws, SDS & 2-speed drill, & a handful of assorted old well-used 18v Bosch tools. 4 different battery sizes/types/configurations, & mercifully only 2 different multi-volt charger systems. Could be worse, could be better.
If I wanted to always chase "the best" of everything, I think I'd drive myself mad. There's always going to be something "newer", "faster", "better" in some way just around the corner. Therein madness lies. A never-ending feedback loop of expectation, investment, disappointment, buyers' remorse & re-investment. Been there, done that already.
It might make sense with corded tools. Where performance parameters are possibly more important than other considerations of cost, repair, service & accessory availability. In some ways, the universality of mains electricity is a huge leveller.
In cordless (& even some corded) tools, for me compatibility is king. I hate having to wait, sometimes months, for some stupid special order of say something as trivially superficial as Festool Delta sander papers just because the bloody holes are in the corners rather than the along the sides in a pattern that every other single manufacturer in the world uses. Which is why I absolutely love the universality of Mesh abrasives. Or that my (same brand) cordless sander batteries won't fit my (same voltage) drill. That's nuts. Or that I have to carry a swag of different branded batteries, tools & chargers onsite for specific tasks. That's ludicrously inefficient.
From all I've heard Fein makes great grinders. They also still make probably the best multitools available too. I love my corded Supercut due to its versatility, smoothness, power, aggression (widest arc of action in the market) & Starlock convenience. It still a crap delta sander, 'though. But honestly if I had to go cordless with either a multitool or grinder I think I'd still choose Metabo's rather ordinary alternative just to avoid yet another bloody battery system!
Having said that, if Fein ever deigned to join the CAS I'd probably ditch my (125mm, not the 230mm) Metabo cordless Grinder in a heartbeat! However, I think that Fein's current battery system is its weakest link in the same way as it is the CAS's greatest asset.
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Post by mafellme on Oct 24, 2020 7:15:53 GMT -5
I've been waiting in the hope that Fein will announce a switch of battery platform, over to CAS, but they've just refreshed the model-branding of their Multi-masters/Supercuts, with very little else evident in the way of change, and I really need to upgrade my multi-tool now. I've waited too long for CAS, so, even though I fear it may come in 2021, I need to buy one now. With that said, I'm looking at kits for the MM700 (which is really a Supercut), and I see that they're pushing the kit with only a pair of 3ah batteries, whereas the Supercut kits offered a 5.2ah option. I realise that the horizontal orientation of multi-tools means that a heavy battery can unbalance the tool a bit, so there is a reason to use lighter/smaller batteries for ergonomic reasons, but I'm wary of buying a 3ah kit if it turns out to be inadequate for run-time. I know that 18v grinders drain their batteries shockingly fast, but I don't know how power-hungry multi-tools are (especially the Powerful Fein Supercut/MM700). It's a longshot but can anyone share their firsthand experience of the 18v Supercut, in terms of runtime? (on whatever battery capacity they happen to use with it) Alternatively, can anyone share their firsthand experience of competing 18v multi-tools, in terms of runtime? (on whatever battery capacity they happen to use with it)
Before anyone suggests it, yes, I realise I could buy a 3ah kit and then seperately buy a 5.2 or 6ah battery to go with it, or buy just a bare tool and add my choice of batts and accessories, but that's much more hassle and (potentially) expense, when you add up ALL of the accessories etc. I HAVE looked and checked the maths.
I'm also aware of the 18v Bosch mutlitool (and Metabo's mafell-users-forum.freeforums.net/post/24030/thread), but, having tolerated a cheapo multi-tool for several years, I really just want to shoot straight for the top, now, and have done with it, even though the Bosch is a very respectable machine.
Thanks!
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Post by aas on Oct 24, 2020 16:11:15 GMT -5
The 6ah's seem to go on forever - still, I use the tiny 12v's the most and leave the 6ah 18v's for the grinder. I just find the multitool too heavy with the big batteries.
If you need to be running the multitool non-stop, maybe the 3ah's won't give you the run time you need - but if you're using it that much, you'll find the weight of the big batteries getting tiring very quickly. I'd say go for the 3ah kit.
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Post by mafellme on Oct 24, 2020 16:25:02 GMT -5
The 6ah's seem to go on forever - still, I use the tiny 12v's the most and leave the 6ah 18v's for the grinder. I just find the multitool too heavy with the big batteries. If you need to be running the multitool non-stop, maybe the 3ah's won't give you the run time you need - but if you're using it that much, you'll find the weight of the big batteries getting tiring very quickly. I'd say go for the 3ah kit.
Thanks, as I said, I realise the high cap batts will weigh more, but it all depends on what kind of duration I can get with 3ah.
I'm not looking for miracles, but the Supercut must be power-hungry to offer the level of performance that it does. If all I can get with 3ah batts is 10-12 mins, then I'm going to be forced to buy with higher cap batts. If it lasts double that, then maybe I can just about settle for 3ah.
Do you know how long the Supercut (not the 300 or 500 Multimasters) will run with 3ah?
I was talking to a work acquaintance last week, who is asking himself exactly the same questions, as we're both looking to get an 18v Supercut (now called AMM 700). The Festool Vecturo is disgustingly overpriced, regardless of the nice plunge attachment.
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Post by matchesder on Oct 25, 2020 3:14:21 GMT -5
As far as I know, the vecturo is basically a supercut. So maybe you get more information on runtime here.
Instead of the bigger bat, have you thought about an additional set of smaller ones? If you were happy with that, you could start with a pair and buy the second set if necessary.
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Post by mafellme on Oct 25, 2020 7:54:23 GMT -5
Thanks, that's a good idea to check Vecturo runtimes.
However, with regard to buying extras, I have zero intention of investing in extra batteries - I'm already annoyed that Fein have so far refused to move over to the CAS battery platform, but I need to get a decent multi-tool now, and I can't wait any longer.
I will only use whatever batteries are in the kit, because I already have other tools on other battery platforms, and therefore have no need or desire to buy other (18v) Fein tools. This is why I will not waste my money investing in extra batteries - they would be a dead-end investment for me (furthermore, for people living outside of Germany, they are substantially overpriced - almost double, compared to batteries from the bigger brands such as DeWALT, Makita, etc.).
As far as I can gather, the 6ah batteries are approximately 750g, and the 3ah batteries are approximately 500g, so the difference in weight isn't as huge as one might imagine - and let's not forget, before the recent name refresh, Fein themselves were selling the Supercut with 6ah batteries. The guy I mentioned, at work, who is in the same situation as me, said he may ask a Fein rep, to ask more about the situation. I'm sure there must be hundreds of other tradespeople wondering exactly the same thing, as the 18v Supercut/AMM700 is a very popular tool, across many different trades (plumbing, electrical, tiling, property refurb/development, etc.)
If I don't find the AMM700 with high-cap batteries (or a killer reason to avoid them), I may even end up buying one of the discontinued supercut kits.
It's funny, I know this is a Mafell forum, but I thought there'd be quite a few members with 18v Fein Supercuts, as they are one of the top choices in the Multi tool market segment.
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Post by kraftt on Oct 25, 2020 13:25:30 GMT -5
As much as I dislike it I intend to demo the new Milwaukee fuel M12 or M18 oscillating multi tool when/if any holiday deals come up that make it too hard to pass on. Because for the price, for a cheap POS, people are saying they're pretty good. If that turns out to be true I’d love to throw one in the van and leave it there with no worry.
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Post by aas on Oct 25, 2020 13:46:57 GMT -5
The most powerful mains one is 450w; a grinder will usually be from around 800w to 1900w - it's normal that the 18v grinder eats batteries, it's a different animal to a multitool. I rarely charge my batts, but I can't honestly tell you the run time. I know I get over 10 mins from the 12v batts, the 18v 6ah are giving over 10 mins on the grinder; if the extra 250g doesn't bother you, then it's the easiest solution.
I know it's been mentioned, but the new Metabo multiool looks pretty good. The previous model was a beast - my only gripe being the switch was almost impossible to turn off!.. this looks to have been changed on the newer model. It's only 200€ as a body only - if you really want to stay CAS, maybe it's a solution.
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 25, 2020 17:56:55 GMT -5
Fein's Supercut range, now rebadged as Multimaster, has an unparalleled 2 degrees of rotary oscillation. As good as the alternatives may seem, the Fein is still a clearly superior tool.
Now all that's required is for some enterprising soul to market 3D printed CAS battery interfaces for near cordless perfection. Any takers?
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Post by holmz on Oct 27, 2020 16:34:22 GMT -5
I am feigning ignorance...
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