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Post by ohan on Oct 28, 2020 11:40:09 GMT -5
As much as I dislike it I intend to demo the new Milwaukee fuel M12 or M18 oscillating multi tool when/if any holiday deals come up that make it too hard to pass on. Because for the price, for a cheap POS, people are saying they're pretty good. If that turns out to be true I’d love to throw one in the van and leave it there with no worry. HD now has the M12 version on sale for $199 (and if you return the battery starter kit - "the hack", even less - under $100). At this point, why not?
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Post by kraftt on Oct 28, 2020 19:49:37 GMT -5
ha, I did try to return the free battery (sealed) included with the brushless router but the barcode denied it - lol. Sold fine online though.
I'm interested in the soft-start, or whatever they call it, where it oscillates at a lower speed until it meets resistance then ramps up to speed (if I have that right). The use of a foam surround to dampen vibration seems like cheap engineering that will quickly degrade over use, but then again it only has to perform well enough at that price. Blade change may be the deal killer, videos show previous versions requiring opening the cam lever and then having to unscrew(!) the pin.
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Post by mafellme on Oct 30, 2020 6:37:45 GMT -5
The use of a foam surround to dampen vibration seems like cheap engineering that will quickly degrade over use Not wishing to sound like a snob (let's face it, I used a crappy no-name multi-tool for several years, before finally having had enough of it and reluctantly putting aside the necessary cash for a Fein), but I have to strongly agree with you about the above. Every man and his dog knows that foam compresses and degrades over time. Just ask an honest owner of a memory foam mattress and they'll concede that it eventually develops a permanent depression where they sleep. OK, there are many different chemical forms of elastomers and foams, but the principle remains largely consistent that it is almost impossible for a foam to be 100% immune to the influence of usage, over time. If you think about how many thousand oscillations the foam will have to endure each and every time the tool is used, that's a huge amount of potential degradation to the foam. Then again, I suppose the Milwaukee is cheap enough to bash around for a year and then buy a new one. In truth, I've never researched what methods Fein employ for decoupling some of the vibration in their multi-tools, but they're not perfect, either; whatever they're doing.
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Post by matchesder on Nov 9, 2020 14:08:20 GMT -5
I'm already annoyed that Fein have so far refused to move over to the CAS battery platform... Are there roumors or was ist just hope from youre side? I do not expect any manufacturer who has his own existing battery system to move to CAS. That is a win for manufacturers with no battery system at all if they want a few products (and for Metabo). Even Bosch separates its battery system between blue and green.
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Post by alvychippy on Nov 9, 2020 14:59:36 GMT -5
The idea of CAS is to get unified standard to be accepted by different manufacturers, so the users would be judging tools by their performance, not the incompatibility of batteries, that is expensive and unnecessary hinderence to the both manufacturers and users. IMO.
Also, I've kept an eye on cordless tools by Wurth, not sure what's their compatability strategy.
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Post by aas on Nov 9, 2020 17:46:30 GMT -5
Also, I've kept an eye on cordless tools by Wurth, not sure what's their compatability strategy. Yes, weird - I thought my 10+ battery platforms was a lot - they've easily got more than that!
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Post by matchesder on Nov 12, 2020 3:39:58 GMT -5
The idea of CAS is to get unified standard to be accepted by different manufacturers. Although I don't know but I think that is your interpretation and most users desire (including mine). There are some manufacturers who were supplying they're batteries (even re branded tools). Metabo created CAS to really emphasize the compatibility. I know a product that uses Metabo but is not in CAS. The portfolio is basically Metabo and lots of special tools. You have the option to by Metabo tools in different colors. For example Fischers two battery tools are the two big impact drivers from Metabo. Mafell A18M is very close a (older) Metabo, Rothenberger, and so on. The system is of interest for manufacturers with no existing battery system and to extend they're range. Manufacturers with an existing battery system would have to tell they're customers: "sorry our new tools cannot be used with your existing batteries" Maybe some don't care, some would be ok to use an adapter of some sort. For a unified standard you would need the cooperation of multiple manufacturers who are producing batteries. Like starlock or SDS. CAS helps Metabo to sell more of they're batteries. For a standard every manufacturer would have to be allowed to make the batteries, sell and use them. This would be the dream of course. But I do not see it in the near future.
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Post by matchesder on Nov 12, 2020 3:45:24 GMT -5
Also, I've kept an eye on cordless tools by Wurth, not sure what's their compatability strategy. Yes, weird - I thought my 10+ battery platforms was a lot - they've easily got more than that!
I think the strategy is to maximize yield. Last I heard they produce "they're own tools" with the help of TTI (parent company of Milwaukee, Ryobi, AEG and others).
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Post by alvychippy on Nov 12, 2020 7:36:04 GMT -5
Spot on! The TTI's and alike making money from designing ever so many incompatible differently trademarked tools. Most are made in the same factories (in PRC), get slightly different livery AND DIFFERENT mounting for the identical batteries. Be it 10 platforms, be it insides are identical, but users are forced to buy more new compatible batteries... and once you have different whatever batteries, makes sense to buy the tools compatible with them. These days batteries cost is greater, than the tools they power up. The same (repeated) bu$ine$$ "strategy", as per computer printers used (as is TBH) be. So, be it Metabo, Mafell and the rest of CAS brands decided to be sensible about it, TTI and alikes aren't going to go with the end user interest's, against own proffits.
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Post by alvychippy on Nov 12, 2020 13:16:54 GMT -5
Also, I've kept an eye on cordless tools by Wurth, not sure what's their compatability strategy. Yes, weird - I thought my 10+ battery platforms was a lot - they've easily got more than that!
You going to love one more on the list www.peugeot-outillage.com/fr/article/energyhub/energy-hub/. .https://int-media.peugeot.com/en/peugeot-launches-full-line-12-cordless-power-tools-energyhub?idtok=63d63bbb7312
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Post by aas on Nov 13, 2020 3:14:35 GMT -5
Yes I saw this!.. such a shame, Peugeot should stick to making pepper mills!
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Post by huntsgemein on Nov 14, 2020 22:35:42 GMT -5
Vive la difference! I think it's great that small companies like Peugeot still manage unique indigenous tool manufacture. Too many small firms have been bankrupted by the vagaries of economics and the predatory pricing policies of far larger competitors.
Just like Germany's Kress, Spain's Casals, Italy's Felissati & Slovenia/Switzerland's Perles they are still managing to stay afloat & (presumably) competitive, whereas many of their peers have gone under.
Most seem to be pitched towards the lower end of their respective markets, however, meaning that to licence expensive battery tech like the rest of the CAS partners have would not be appropriate. A truly "professional" battery system slung off the nether regions of a DIY tool just won't work from a marketing perspective. More apppropriate would perhaps be the cheaper green Bosch battery alliance.
Yet from a competitive viewpoint this "mid to bottom end" product positioning is probably the most competitive and risky price point of all. More power to them.
Metabo & its mates in the CAS seems to be more of a German-only cabal of professional tool manufacturers aimed more at trade & "professional" consumers, & priced accordingly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anything other than German firms represented in the CAS! Most also tend to be rather specialist, niche & non-competitive manufacturers at that.
The only possible non-native fit would perhaps be Perles, given that they also are a niche manufacturer of non-competing heavy duty pro-grade tools. Were it not for the fact that Perles doesn't actually manufacture or market Cordless tools at all! It's chief specialty seems to be low voltage corded AC tools in 48 & 72 V specifically for safe use in critically flammable & explosive environments such as Oil Rigs, Powdered Aluminium, TNT & other extremely dangerous chemical plants etc. Realistically, there's some extreme environments where using battery power is less than desirable, if not actually inappropriate, such as polar extreme low temperatures etc.
Nevertheless, it's probably high time that Metabo's & KKR's executives seriously consider reducing the exclusiveness of their CAS cabal & actually spread the love beyond the borders of their Teuonic fatherland.
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Post by alvychippy on Nov 16, 2020 19:15:26 GMT -5
Vive la difference! I think it's great that small companies like Peugeot still manage unique indigenous tool manufacture. Too many small firms have been bankrupted by the vagaries of economics and the predatory pricing policies of far larger competitors. Just like Germany's Kress, Spain's Casals, Italy's Felissati & Slovenia/Switzerland's Perles they are still managing to stay afloat & (presumably) competitive, whereas many of their peers have gone under. Most seem to be pitched towards the lower end of their respective markets, however, meaning that to licence expensive battery tech like the rest of the CAS partners have would not be appropriate. A truly "professional" battery system slung off the nether regions of a DIY tool just won't work from a marketing perspective. More apppropriate would perhaps be the cheaper green Bosch battery alliance. Yet from a competitive viewpoint this "mid to bottom end" product positioning is probably the most competitive and risky price point of all. More power to them. Metabo & its mates in the CAS seems to be more of a German-only cabal of professional tool manufacturers aimed more at trade & "professional" consumers, & priced accordingly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anything other than German firms represented in the CAS! Most also tend to be rather specialist, niche & non-competitive manufacturers at that. The only possible non-native fit would perhaps be Perles, given that they also are a niche manufacturer of non-competing heavy duty pro-grade tools. Were it not for the fact that Perles doesn't actually manufacture or market Cordless tools at all! It's chief specialty seems to be low voltage corded AC tools in 48 & 72 V specifically for safe use in critically flammable & explosive environments such as Oil Rigs, Powdered Aluminium, TNT & other extremely dangerous chemical plants etc. Realistically, there's some extreme environments where using battery power is less than desirable, if not actually inappropriate, such as polar extreme low temperatures etc. Nevertheless, it's probably high time that Metabo's & KKR's executives seriously consider reducing the exclusiveness of their CAS cabal & actually spread the love beyond the borders of their Teuonic fatherland. In essence what you are saying as if different mounting makes power supply different ... don't think so.
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Post by huntsgemein on Nov 16, 2020 21:07:03 GMT -5
In essence what you are saying as if different mounting makes power supply different ... don't think so. Now I'm confused........ If you're referring to the Perles low voltage range, they're one of perhaps 3 or 4 manufacturers of specialist super-duty metalworking tools pitched at remote & environmentally extreme industrial workplaces. Their low-voltage range is a small clutch of CORDED metalworking tools that will run on either AC or DC at either 48 or 72V . Being very low-volume production makes them automatically very expensive. The specialist heavy duty high-current field wiring alone uses lots & lots of copper. I'd imagine they'd (MOTORS) be essentially handmade to order & subsequently fitted to more conventional chassis! Or are you referring to the smaller manufacturers' proprietary battery attachment architecture? My point is that in a cosy little arrangement such as the CAS seems to be, it's somewhat telling that to date the membership has been restricted to manufacturers & marketers of Teutonic origin. My second point is that even if the CAS was to be licensed internationally, then it would really only be suited to upscale, upmarket "professional" tool manufacturers, as the additional expense of having a premium specced & priced battery (not to mention the licensing expense) simply doesn't make sense when applied to a "budget" range of cordless tools. It would merely serve to make said tools too expensive & therefore uncompetitive in comparison to alternative budget brands. I further asserted that budget tool ranges would be more appropriately allied with the cheaper of the 2 proposed Robert Bosch battery alliance platforms: their smaller, less highly specced Green range rather than the (CAS rival) Blue battery range. All are cordless ranges. All are 18V. The only "difference" is the mounting architecture, & of course the variety of battery cells & price points involved between DIY & Pro ranges. Having a variety of manufacturers utilising a collective alliance of battery interfaces, cell & charger characteristics is surely a good thing from a marketing perspective. So far, there's 3: the CAS, Bosch Green & Blue. So there's opportunities for even smaller international niche manufacturers of cordless tools to collectivise battery technologies to at least 2 different price points whilst remaining price-competitive to far larger east asian competitors. Having a Peugeot drill use the same battery & charger as a Bosch Hedge trimmer or a Kress, Felissati or Casals budget priced DIY tool would benefit both producer (larger effective range) & end-user (convenience). That's surely the key marketing benefit of battery alliances, isn't it? IF a premium manufacturer such as Perles was to again decide to produce cordless tools, then they'd surely be best served joining one of the 2 "professional" battery alliances (Bosch Blue or the CAS) rather than develop their own unique interface. Less R&D expenses, more commonality & marketability in an alliance. Or have I missed your point altogether?
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Post by alvychippy on Nov 17, 2020 8:41:47 GMT -5
I disagree with splitting the hairs for CAS alliance battery requirements or other toolmaker unwillingness to participate due to some or other "standards" older CAS compliant battery (18v) charge/discharge rates aren't that amazing or different with 90% of so called professional tool maker standards as ... Ryobi, Milwaukee, Dewalt, Fein etc etc, what is different is mounting, that's all. There are plenty of battery adapters, that does exactly so and perfectly well and that is the point that annoys me. Proprietary "standards"-compatibility issues is so 20'th century greedy game by manufacturers, that is not even funny.
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