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Post by henrun on Jun 16, 2018 1:03:01 GMT -5
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Post by henrun on Jun 16, 2018 1:18:32 GMT -5
First things first. The GRIP. Near perfect on Hitachi. "OK" on Metabo. For larger hands the Metabo will be better than for me. With and without gloves the Hitachi is a slam dunk home run ball over the fence into the parking lot winner for me. I did predrilling with the Metabo (Fisch Countersunk hex bit) and then switched to driving with the Hitachi. After an hour I switched tasks. Everytime I went from the Metabo to the Hitachi - with and without gloves - my hands went oooh and aaah. It is that nice. So, is the Hitachi that much better in use? Well, it is not a slam dunk victory as they are pretty much the same in action even if the ergonomics on the Hitachi is superior to me. Metabo even has the upper hand in working features. The Hitachi is very nimble, more in line with the Makita impacts, being compact and agile. I shifted between modes for driving deck screws and setting "delicate" works well, setting two (normal) works well but with a little fast driving and easy to sink it down to deep if you don't watch out. Drill mode for self tapping works well too as it starts fast and when the decking screws drop down below the surface it slows down so no risk for sinking it too deep. But, it slows it down a little too much if there is more resistance so takes a little while longer as well. Never tried Power mode for decking screws. The Metabo has variable torque and can be dialed in more precisely to a torque setting that is pretty much bang on for decking screws. For these screws/material it was setting 4. Works better than on Hitachi. Battery indicator is four bars on the Metabo - and the superb LiHD batteries. Hitachi only has two bars on the machine. The Hitachi battery is really a true compact battery and very small for a 3 Ah battery. Light on the Hitachi can be switched on/off at your preference which is great. Belt clips are similar, perhaps a bit better on the Metabo. Hitachi comes with a strap on (...) and the clip and I do like the strap when up on a ladder. Looking at the front the bit holder and rim looks exactly the same in machining, material and size. Sure looks like they are the same - maybe sent from Hitachi to Metabo for assebly in the Metabo machine? Both are great impacts, the Metabo has some tweaks that make it easier to dial in but the Hitachi works great and has better ergonomics. I will get me another Hitachi impact for predrilling so I can get by with the one charger. I have a few thousand screws to run and a few hundred pilot holes to drill on this project alone.  |
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kozn
New Member
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Post by kozn on Jun 19, 2018 13:39:12 GMT -5
Can I ask why you use an impact to drill holes? To me it seems like it would be really hard on your drill(-bits) when the impact kicks in? I would use a light weight drill.
I am very tempted to get the Metabo SSD BL, now I use the old SSW200 with a converter to use hex bits but is no fun at all to use for unscrewing old screws. None of the bits I own fit snug in the converter thing.
I used a brushless makita the other day from a friend and while it is a powerful machine I didn't really like it. I just couldn't get the screws to sit flush with the material. Either I sank them too deep or I had to slow down really hard to get em flush. But then again I hardly ever use an impact for wood-screws unless they are big ass screws.
Good thing it was just a temporary dry toilet outside for a party cause I was not too proud of the job I did there.
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Post by henrun on Jun 19, 2018 17:10:23 GMT -5
No worries. The new Metabo impact is a lot nicer than the old one for sure! I drill pilot holes for decking screws and the impact does not kick in at all. In the right setting the impact drills the holes both fast and clean. I have not worn out a single drill bit yet. I don't think impacting drill holes is a good idea but as mentioned above it does work really well. I would say it works up to 8, perhaps 10mm with sharp drill bits. But I have mostly used the impact at 3.5 and up to 6mm and a few times at 8mm. I use countersink hex bits and small diameters. It is easy to control depth. For sinking in the screws I do dial down the impact and knock them down slowly by easing off the trigger when closing in on the surface. |
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kozn
New Member
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Post by kozn on Jun 19, 2018 17:27:23 GMT -5
Aah yes no impacting plus it'll probably turn faster than a standard drill.
The problem with the makita for me was it just went too fast not really being used to using an impact plus no way of dialing it down except for releasing the trigger. If I would use it more I would probably get the hang of it. Also not starting to build a toilet at 2am with a good amount of beer would have been a great help but hey it was a party after-all and nobody fell into it when the real party started, so all in all it wasn't that bad.
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Post by henrun on Jun 20, 2018 0:36:47 GMT -5
So... ... a shyte job on the p*ss? Your fine tools deserve better mate!  The Metabo has the advantage over the Hitachi for dialing in the Torque but the four settings on the Hitachi are good enough for my needs. |
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kozn
New Member
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Post by kozn on Jun 20, 2018 8:29:37 GMT -5
LOL I gues you could say that.
I'm on the metabo 18V platform so for me it'll be more economic to go for the SSD as I have so many batteries already.
I just had a look and there are not too many places to order it from in Belgium but I found one for 202 euro's shipping included. Seems like a good deal.
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Post by aas on Jun 20, 2018 12:28:22 GMT -5
I paid less than that. About 180€ inc shipping to France.
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Post by henrun on Jun 20, 2018 12:34:59 GMT -5
Sounds like a decent deal, it is about the same I paid for mine. It is a very good impact and it has some "features" that are useful and not "just two speed settings".
I am happy with most of my Metabo gear and even if some tools are not class leading they all do the job. Since I do a lot of assembly (of my own stuff) on site I am leaning towards dropping the drilling part and get back on Festool and let Hitachi do the "heavy work" like decking, framing and stuff. But, I have the Metabo grinder and the KHA 24 LTX which is a great hammer drill that does mixing grout and cement too so for pretty much all the grunty work I am well invested. It is probably one of the best cordless hammer drills on the market for grunt, size and ergonomics combined.
I keep looking at other drills and I have realized it is because I am not satisfied with the ergonomics. I need to get used to the thought of adding another platform but with Festool I already have the BHC 18 (no chiseling though), the T18 and the DWC drywall gun and I even have a DRC at the workshop that I traded for a C12 some time ago. So I am set with Festool already and I use it for second fix at larger projects and kitchen work. A Festool impact would have me set. But the waiting game is tiring, has been for a few years.
Next large project (four month studio build) allows for a pair of Hitachi's in the budget as there will be two "helpers" on site every day and I got a brushless Hitachi drill for free with the kit so they will be spoilt with the extra drills. They will probably inherit the drill after the job is done. There will be tons of drilling and larger holes for ventilation so I am eyeballing a Hitachi 18V combination hammer drill - they are at 43% sale so the solo unit hammer drill with 2,6 Joule strike is the same price as a regular drill (!). Hard to pass up on that and limit the drilling to one charger for most of the work. There are only four 16A a/c outlets on site and they will all be occupied most of the day for the vac, mitre saw and one flood light as well as the temporary light fixture. Leaves me with one spare socket that I can branch out and run two or three chargers on. But that's it so two 18V platforms and one odd/specialty tool = three chargers, tops.
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kozn
New Member
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Post by kozn on Jun 22, 2018 8:36:09 GMT -5
I paid less than that. About 180€ inc shipping to France. Can I ask where you got it from? I assume you didn't had to pay taxes on it as you are a pro? I am doubting to go for LiHD batteries, I'm still running on the "normal" 4 and 5.2Ah batteries. For me they do the job just fine and except for the kss40 I don't have any brushless tools. I am wondering if the brushed tools also get more power from the LiHD batteries. I could be wrong but I remember reading in a Metabo leaflet that only brushless tools get extra power (and maybe longer runtime?) from the LiHD batteries. Can some of you comment on this statement? In any case I will have to sell of some batteries and chargers (maybe with some brushed tools and get the brushles version) if I go LiHD. I like to rotate my batteries as it's not to good to leave batteries fully (dis-) charged for longer periods of time. I wish there was way to charge them at 3.7V per cell (storage charge of Li batteries) so I could store them in wintertime. |
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Post by huntsgemein on Jun 22, 2018 9:42:42 GMT -5
Anecdotally, my el cheapo Metabo SCMS (KGS18 LTX) performs much better on Li-HDs. Especially in hardwoods. Even the single-row 3.1s. I'm personally never going back to the old-school M-power batteries. That'd be a similar result to going back to an inferior rival brands' products. Likewise the grinders (albeit EC motored ones) prefer the Li-HDs too.
Those newest 4.0s, 4.5s, 8.0s & 9.0s promise to be true powerhouses.
One thing 'though: all the double-row batteries (old or new) are just too big & heavy for intensive use on lighter tools such as the drills, rattlers etc. The mass, ergonomics & balance just seems "off" with the biggest batteries. I hate heavy hand-held tools. I'd far rather sacrifice a little productivity than spend the following night/week/month in inflamed carpal tunnel induced agony. This is why the compact Bosch SDS mini-hammers are so much more superior to the rather crude, much bigger & heavier Metabo & Makita alternatives. Superior balance & similar performance for just over half the net weight.
Unlike Henrun I've never personally had any sort of issue with the size or shape of any cordless tools' grip. It's never in all honesty ever been an issue with me. OK, I detest that stupid Festool "second finger trigger" setup, but for years now I've been convinced that Festool's cordless range has been designed by idiots specifically for cashed-up morons anyway.
Size, weight & balance however, make a world of difference to me. The difference between long-term productivity & nights of agony. Hand tools similarly DO make a difference too. I've found it necessary to use wooden handled impact tools for a few decades now to restrict any further wrist damage. I simply cannot cope with excessively vibratory, impactful or even tight grips for any sustained period. A legacy of spending my school holidays quarrying with an air hammer.
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Post by aas on Jun 22, 2018 15:20:37 GMT -5
I paid less than that. About 180€ inc shipping to France. Can I ask where you got it from? I assume you didn't had to pay taxes on it as you are a pro? FFX in UK.
Price includes tax and shipping.
I picked up some 4,0ah Lihd batts too.
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Post by aas on Jun 22, 2018 15:32:17 GMT -5
Those newest 4.0s, 4.5s, 8.0s & 9.0s promise to be true powerhouses. I only have lihd's - 3.1, 5.5, 4.0 & 8.0 - so can't compare with the older ones, but there is a massive difference between even these, regardless of what the specs say.
KSS40 & KS18LTX57 - both cut noticeably better with the 5.5 and 8.0 ah's.
But the thing that has surprised me is the SSW18LTX400BL - I've had a few rusty 'Tirefonds' to remove (can't think of the word in English). With a newly charged 3.1 or 4.0 - the SSW400 stalls - put on a 5.5 or 8.0 and it will either remove or break the bolt.
So this leads me to a question - what battery was used for the 400nm rating?... because with a 3.1, it sure isn't putting out 400nm.
I was hoping the 4.0 ah's would provide the ooomph needed for some tools in a compact package - but it seems to be an upgrade path of the 3.1 to 3.5 - the KSS40 and SSW400 don't work at their best on the 4.0's
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kozn
New Member
Posts: 35
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Post by kozn on Jun 24, 2018 15:16:49 GMT -5
Anecdotally, my el cheapo Metabo SCMS (KGS18 LTX) performs much better on Li-HDs. Especially in hardwoods. Even the single-row 3.1s. I'm personally never going back to the old-school M-power batteries. That'd be a similar result to going back to an inferior rival brands' products. Likewise the grinders (albeit EC motored ones) prefer the Li-HDs too. Well after reading your post I suppose it makes sense that even brushed tools could get more power as the voltage drop will be less, the 20700 batteries can output more Amps with less voltage drop so Watts are going up. Here is a nice site where you can compare different batteries and how they act under different loads. I'm not sure which cells exactly metabo uses but I think it's either samsung or sanyo (I even think both companies merged but don't quote me on that.) lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Common18650comparator.phpaas Thanks for the shop, I'l have look. Have to wait for some funds to come and then i might push the button. I did order a 4Ah LiHD battery just cause I'm curious. |
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Post by henrun on Jun 24, 2018 16:57:36 GMT -5
kozn: there is an improvement running the high drain tools for sure! I was a bit sceptic but I was surprised.
I haven't even tried the largest battery on the KSS40 yet. On recommendation from Huntsgemein I have been running the 5,5 LiHD and runtime and power has been great.
Don't read too much into my ergonomics comments as that is highly subjective and I envy the guys that are fine with most if not all grips. I wish I was, life would be soooo much easier. At the end of the day I still use the best compromise available though I still wish and hope for the ultimate drill. Some are quite close!
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