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Post by Tom Gensmer on Nov 11, 2017 21:06:34 GMT -5
I'm on the hunt for a new filter-cleaning vac, and I was looking to see if anybody had any input on the Nilfisk Attix line? Until recently, I've been using a Festool CT-36AC for extracting cementitious materials, including drywall sanding, as well as cutting, grinding, and breaking concrete. The CT-36AC worked adequately. I really liked that it has a hose garage and Systainer dock, though I've never been completely happy with Festool's cord wrap system. I was always rather wary that I wasn't running a HEPA filter. I didn't like the plastic liner bags from Festool because they tended to fall apart in cold weather so I've ben running bagless for the last couple years. After several electrical glitches in other CT-26/36 vacs, I'm moving away from the platform and want to find something else. I have tried the Starmix-style vacs (the Metabo) and it is a VERY nice vac. My gripe about it was lack of a Systainer dock, and I really did not like the small, plastic casters with non-effective locks. Until today I was looking at going with a HILTI VC 150-6 XE. This vac is HEPA-capable, 150 CFM, tool-triggered start, VERY robust/durable, and it has VERY nice locking casters. Down side is the vac alone is ~$850, plus another ~$200 for a HEPA filter. Upside is, HILTI has a fabulous service network, so if there's ever an issue I'm only ~20 minutes away from the service center. Today I was poking around Acme Tools and took a close look at some Nilfisk vacs and the new Milwaukee vacuum, an obviously rebranded Nilfisk. Here's what I think is appealing about the Nilfisk Attix 33/44 line: -- "Reasonably" priced at $700, which includes a HEPA filter and anti static hose: www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/nilfisk-alto-900147-- This vac combines the filter pulsing function with a HEPA filter, something the CT-36AC can't do and still effectively extract drywall dust and other cementitious materials -- Multistage filtering: Apparently the way the Nilfisk can achieve a HEPA-rated, pulsed filter is by going with a multi-stage filtration system. I don't know what the level of filtration on the primary filter is, but apparently the HEPA filter sits beyond the primary filter, and only filters the air that gets past the primary, pulsed filter. -- The front casters are the same style as the HILTI: relatively large diameter, rubber lined. -- There is a "Universal" docking station available. In the videos they show it being used with the Sortimo/Bosch L-BOXX system, but it appears it also works with Systainers. The best of both worlds, and I don't have to try to cobble something together. Brilliant!! Looks like this accessory costs ~$30. www.nilfisk.com/en/products/Pages/product.aspx?pid=107413551There's some good-quality shots of the docking station after ~14:00 in this video: -- The cord wrap system seems fast and intuitive -- It looks like the hose wraps around the vac nicely -- The stock hose appears to be a ~35mm antistatic model, with an optional rubber nozzle that appears nearly identical to the 27mm end ubiquitous to the Festool hoses. www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/nilfisk-alto-107409977The Attix 33 and 44 appear to share identical motor units, and differ only in bin size. I'd be inclined to go with the smaller "33" size. Am I missing anything here? The way I am currently set up is that I always carry two tool-triggered vacs in the van. I always have a CT-MIDI, which is my ultra-mobile extractor and is generally used with sanders, trim routers, and light job site clean up. The second vac is generally larger (CT-26/36, Starmix/Metabo, etc...), and is used for larger tools, general job site clean up, and extraction of cementitious materials if the vac can handle it. I would be looking to use the Attix 33 for this second class of tool. Has anybody had any experience with this specific tool, or other Nilfisk products? |
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Post by calidecks on Nov 12, 2017 1:22:36 GMT -5
I've got my eye on that Milwaukee. Just haven't pulled the trigger yet. I too am interested in what someone has to say about them. I'm assuming the Milwaukee is the same just different color and name?
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Nov 12, 2017 10:05:23 GMT -5
I've got my eye on that Milwaukee. Just haven't pulled the trigger yet. I too am interested in what someone has to say about them. I'm assuming the Milwaukee is the same just different color and name? As best as I can tell the new Milwaukee vac is a rebranded Attix 33. It ships with the antistatic hose, ships with a HEPA filter, and appears to be compatible with the Nilfisk accessories. www.acmetools.com/shop/tools/milwaukee-8960-20This video compares some of the modern tool-triggered vacs with the filter-cleaning functionality. Some glaring omissions include the CT-36AC and Hilti VC-150 series, but it's nice to see the Bosch, Metabo (Starmix) and the Milwaukee (Nilfisk) put head-to-head. On a side note, other rebranded vacs include the Metabo (rebranded Starmix), Makita (rebranded Nilfisk, I think the Alto?), not sure about the Bosch, I believe the older Festool CT22/33 were made by Nilfisk, I believe the older Porter Cable (now Dewalt) vacs were rebranded Karcher, and I've been told the HILTI vacs are made by Nilfisk as well. So, like so many other things, the number of players in the high-end vacuum world is pretty small. I have to say, I'm pretty excited about the knock-on effects of the new OSHA silica regulations. Most of the major tool manufacturers that previously did not have vacuums have now released vacuums, which in turn means ready access to dust bags, filters, hoses and other accessories that used to be specialty or special order items. |
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Post by huntsgemein on Nov 12, 2017 14:46:43 GMT -5
Festo/ol's CT11/22/33/44 series vacs were made by Kraenzle, a small vac & pressure washer company acquired by Tooltechnic about the year 2000 or so. Their earlier vacs (SR series) were made by Wap, a company that sometime, somehow merged with Nilfisk & Alto. At least some ( possibly all) of Festo's vacs are still made by Kraenzle. CT17, Mini, Midi et al?
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Post by kraftt on Nov 12, 2017 17:15:01 GMT -5
Looking at the Nilfisk 33/44 (Milwaukee) they appear to have two interesting accessories: The first is a baby motor filter, similar to main filter, to replace the supplied (I assume) sponge filter to protect motor in very dusty environments -  and the second is an exhaust port attachment to duct filtered air outside -  ------------------------------------- don't know why they're calling it a motor 'cooling' filter - it prob makes it run warmer.  |
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Post by kraftt on Nov 14, 2017 12:21:48 GMT -5
Oddly even though the Milwaukee comes with a HEPA filter the manual says:
" Warning. Do NOT use this dust extractor to vacuum lead paint debris because this may disperse fine lead particles into the air. This dust extractor is not intended for use under EPA Regulation 40 CFR Part 745 for lead paint material cleanup."
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Post by kraftt on Nov 15, 2017 11:10:41 GMT -5
... and then when you go to Nilfisk's site they claim their Attix 33/44 exceed epa regulations to collect hazardous lead dust. my guess now is that page 2 of Milwaukee's 8960-20 manual is a misprint (?).   |
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Nov 19, 2017 11:05:11 GMT -5
... and then when you go to Nilfisk's site they claim their Attix 33/44 exceed epa regulations to collect hazardous lead dust. my guess now is that page 2 of Milwaukee's 8960-20 manual is a misprint (?). That was my suspicion as well, that the admonishment in the Milwaukee manual was probably copy and pasted from another Milwaukee vacuum that did not carry the same certifications as the rebranded Nilfisk. I recently had an opportunity to chat with the Nilfisk representative for my region, and it sounds like the Attix 33/44 is a replacement for the Attix 30, and was updated specifically to address the OSHA silica regulations that recently went into effect. I have a Attix 33 on backorder but no idea of delivery date, I'll post up impressions when it arrives and I've had an opportunity to put it through its paces. |
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Post by kraftt on Nov 19, 2017 13:29:01 GMT -5
That would be great. I’m a contented shop-vac + wunder bag user but really need something for occasional small remediation of lead (& now silica) when it comes up in the course of remodels or other work and i’m starting to hear that in some high rise and commercial they won’t let any other type of vac be used regardless of intended use.
I think cali and you found the one that offers a lot in general (bang for the buck) but also isn’t a pain in the ass to use as the video concludes (whether biased / paid for or not I agree with it). And the consumables are reasonable and their accessory selection seems very good.
I might call Nilfisk too and follow up on the Milwaukee manual since they are the source and then ask Milwaukee for a certificate overriding their supplied manual (unless it’s only an online pdf misprint).
Normally a little lacquer thinner whould swipe the Milwaukee logo right off and then a nice Mafell stencil with some red spray paint … but you can’t alter something that’s been certified, oh well.
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Post by kraftt on Nov 19, 2017 18:42:52 GMT -5
fwiw - Most of you know better, but I assumed that with the bigger, more generic, brand names that it doesn’t much matter where you bought it for warrantee.
I bought a milwaukee tool recently for one job and even though I knew I would be selling it after completion I still thought I should get the warrantee because I was going to push it hard (pos gets pistol hot). I found a good price on amazon but just before I purchased I called milwaukee with an unrelated question and discovered that unless it was purchased from an authorized distributor/reseller there would be no warrantee.
Went to a box store instead to pick one up and by chance it was the milwaukee rep’s assigned day there, when asked he offered to take 10% off the price like it was nothing.
So if you’re after one in red check that they are willing to use the word authorized in their response, if they just say they are ‘resellers’ then it’s grey & no warrantee. If there’s a good deal at the local box store call ahead and find out when the sales rep for milwaukee is in and make him think he made the sale.
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Post by procarpenterrva on Nov 20, 2017 20:59:19 GMT -5
I have an Attix 8 S/E that I've run the heck out of for over ten years and I can't find anything wrong with it. It's tool triggered, nice and compact, easy to roll around, and not terribly heavy. It has the standard filter and I've never needed the HEPA filter. I paid around $600 for it and threw away the Fein that had burned out. I had bought a rebuilt motor for about 300 for a previous Fein, and that second one only made it two years. (of daily use)
I've literally worn the wheels off two floor tools with the Attix, used it daily as an extractor for sanding, routing with and without a table, and with a TS55. I thought I had lost the 35mm 16 foot hose and ordered another from Jet.com because they had a good price and a 20 percent coupon, then I found the old hose. So now my Festool CT26 has the proper hose for the track saw. 😁 For about half of the cost of a Festool hose.
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Post by kraftt on Nov 21, 2017 12:21:33 GMT -5
That's the kind of endorsement you like to hear - thanks.
-------------------------------------------
Just got off the phone in a disappointing conversation with a milwaukee tech. He claims to have been to the product orientation session for the vacuum (milwaukee 'version') and that it is definitely not for lead pick up.
I sparred with him about the plausibility of milwuakee's assertion vs someone just getting it wrong but he was very officious and adamant about it not being designed for lead use. He understood that Nilfisk makes the vacuum but said that milwaukee's is "made differently". When I asked why milwaukee would spend for the trouble of reengineering something to be inferior he had no answer but that it would need another HEPA. I explained that it does come with a HEPA and he just referred back to the training session he went to where they told him it could not be used for lead. I asked if their HEPA differs from Nilfisk's and he used some terminology that went by at 200kph but I couldn't convince him to repeat it so that I could write it down.
When I recap'ed the conversation asking "So you're telling me that milwaukee has theirs made differently than the Nilfisk...?" he became upset claiming I was putting words in his mouth. (?!) So I asked - "so they're the same then?" but that didn't go well either.
If the tech is correct, and in the sense that once they printed that in the manual it's over and he is as far as OSHA is concerned, then for the same money you can buy the o.e.m. version from Nilfisk and own the more versatile superior version.
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Post by huntsgemein on Nov 21, 2017 16:48:41 GMT -5
Putting it all into perspective Nilfisk, as the designer/creator of this machine has particular tasks & capabilities in mind when they released this machine. It's in their interest to make it as useful & ubiquitous as poss. Realistically, their design team had a particular design brief to design to; i.e. lead absorption capability among others. The production team then had to subsequently make the machine that fulfilled those "aspirations".
Lead is dangerous. It is, even in relatively small concentrations, poisonous and particularly deleterious to the correct development of the central nervous systems of the unborn. Therefore, a potential for litigious remedies in law exists should a "certified" lead-protective product fail & contamination/poisoning occur. Big M is merely covering it's cowardly arse here. Nilfisk's machine, when properly equipped & correctly operated should be suitable for the collection of lead-based contaminants. As will it's Milwaukee clone. Milwaukee, however, is adopting some sneaky type of diversionary or denial technique to avoid the rather remote future possibility of litigation or damages.
If in doubt, get the Nilfisk original.
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Post by kraftt on Dec 1, 2017 20:31:21 GMT -5
I got a nice reply from Nilfisk telling me they haven't forgotten about me and that they are waiting for their "private labeling management team overseas" to look into this and get back to them. In my original contact with Nilfisk they were genuinely surprised by Milwaukee's statement in the manual.
I suspect huntsgemein's legal theory will be what it boils down to. Would be great if Nilfisk could educate them though.
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Post by holmz on Dec 1, 2017 21:20:39 GMT -5
Putting it all into perspective Nilfisk, as the designer/creator of this machine has particular tasks & capabilities in mind when they released this machine. It's in their interest to make it as useful & ubiquitous as poss. Realistically, their design team had a particular design brief to design to; i.e. lead absorption capability among others. The production team then had to subsequently make the machine that fulfilled those "aspirations". Lead is dangerous. It is, even in relatively small concentrations, poisonous and particularly deleterious to the correct development of the central nervous systems of the unborn. Therefore, a potential for litigious remedies in law exists should a "certified" lead-protective product fail & contamination/poisoning occur. Big M is merely covering it's cowardly arse here. Nilfisk's machine, when properly equipped & correctly operated should be suitable for the collection of lead-based contaminants. As will it's Milwaukee clone. Milwaukee, however, is adopting some sneaky type of diversionary or denial technique to avoid the rather remote future possibility of litigation or damages. If in doubt, get the Nilfisk original. The risk management legal teams are out of control... And at the same moment we have Flint Michigan doing a lead cover up - and other dodgy-nesses. |
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