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Post by charley1968 on Feb 17, 2017 17:13:05 GMT -5
If you write about a machine, begin the post with the type of the machine with capital letters!
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Post by aas on Oct 9, 2017 15:11:07 GMT -5
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 9, 2017 16:40:37 GMT -5
I've previously commented on these tools elsewhere. Personally, I'm a tad disappointed in some of them. There's nothing intrinsically wrong per se, but some could've been a whole lot better too, using just a bit more development.
The SDS hammer is cleverly constructed & appears well equipped in compliance with the latest dust extraction directives. Yet in overall performance it lacks the power & performance of the latest equivalent from Bosch. As always it seems that Bosch is the perennial category leader in SDS & Max hammers in all classes. That said, as an adjunct to one's Metabo, Mafell &/or Collomix cordless kit it's certainly more than adequate.
The planer & saw by contrast are maybe a bit more disappointing. Both appear to be re-batteried versions of existing Hitachi Koki tools. Not bad so far,but both seem to be equipped with conventional low powered brushed motors. Disappointing, in that Metabo currently makes some of the best, most powerful & reliable EC (brushless) 18 & 36v motors in the industry. In fact,good enough for Mafell to use, among others. Using these more powerful motors in these tools would've made both far more personally appealing to me. I also personally think that the Saw in particular is rather "plasticky" & I'd personally be a bit dubious about its long term survival in rough going on worksites, it's natural habitat. That plastic pendulum cover retraction handle in particular seems vulnerable to damage. It also precludes its use for flush cutting. Having already owned 3 gutless cordless saws before & having used many others too I'm rather underwhelmed. Useless for hardwood is my conclusion, which may be a mite unfair in an untested device, but with a bit more forethought & design it could've been (just like the latest Metabo equipped Mafell's) so much better.
The table Saw seems great. Powerful innovative & capacious. In fact a sure-fire winner I suspect. I've been using their corded version for a few years now, & find it a powerful, portable worksite champ. I particularly like its clever, rapid folding leg mechanism & the fact that the fence, mitre jig, push stick, crown guard, extraction collector & hose, tool & spare blades are all stored onboard, minimising the risk of loss.
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Post by aas on Oct 10, 2017 1:56:46 GMT -5
I never know where to look for non-Mafell tools on this site - I guess I missed some of your posts!
I try not to have too many battery platforms, so the Metabo stuff interests me because of the KSS40 and excellent Lihd batts. The same reason I got rid of my CXS (a one tool battery platform) stops me getting a Bosch cordless SDS (for me it would be a one tool battery platform) - so the latest Metabo offering does interest me, as does the table saw.
Having said that, I question a bit the quality of some of the Metabo range. The multi-tool which to be fair is just average, has an awkward sticking switch. The 5" grinder, supposedly Metabo's forté - the swivelling battery mount ended up getting so loose and vibrating, that I chose one position and it is well and truly taped into place. For now, the other tools are holding up.
I agree the new tools should have all been released as brushless - disappointing to say the least.
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 10, 2017 5:18:30 GMT -5
I agree with one battery platform. It just makes sense. This is I suspect why many (most??) tradies are so keen on formerly Makita & now more commonly Milwaukee tools. Their enormous range & variety of (mostly) good quality choices. I think one's choice of platform should be decided on one's primary tool requirements, with the rest which may not be quite as good of less importance.
I don't know if that came out right, so I'll use my own experience as an example. A few years ago as a commercial/industrial electrician my primary needs were cordless SDS mini hammer & grinder. Bosch was the obvious choice, as they had easily the best hammers & grinders available. There just wasn't any viable alternative. Makita's hammer was big, heavy & worst of all required 2 hands to safely operate. The grinder was worse. It would instantly shut down when any load was applied. Yes, they have always had the best rattlers, & reasonable quality drills, but these tools, which I also used, just weren't as important to me.
The Bosch rattler was ordinary. My recipro was awful: either off or flat-out. No finesse in such a potentially rough & rugged tool. My drill was big, powerful, heavy & unfortunately lacked an easily interchangeable chuck (no left handed screw & 1/2" x 20 screw mount). I put up with it. If my primary priorities were different I'd possibly buy into another system instead.
These days, at last there's a possibility of a viable cordless track/circular saw, courtesy of Mafell. There's also a best in class drill range, a much better (read acceptable) grinder, a pretty good SDS mini hammer, etc. etc. etc. all packing the best in class Li-HD battery pack. In fact, the Metabo/Mafell/Collomix/American grinder whose name escapes me "family" has expanded enormously, with about 85 or 90 separate tools packing this same battery interface.
My priorities have changed, as has the overall cordless tool market too. This particular range may lack more gimmicky & less useful tools like cordless sanders, routers or coffee makers, but these are tools I can well do without. The family DOES however have great rip & crosscut saws, fantastic drills, brilliant floodlights, fantastic, lightweight but fairly capacious SCMS, the biggest & most powerful EC grinders in 230, 180, 150 & 125mm sizes, & the biggest & arguably the best portable table Saw (sorry DeWalt). All packing the world's best battery system.
What's not to like? OK, there may be better SDS & Recipro saws available (ironically now/still Bosch), better rattlers (Makita), planers (who knows), etc. etc. The fact remains that for me the perceived collective quality, durability & utility of the extended Metabo family is now streets ahead of all alternatives. Now. For me. In my current circumstances.
Others will think otherwise I'm sure. Others have different needs, circumstances, expectations & aspirations. But for me they're the duck's guts.
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Post by aas on Oct 10, 2017 6:36:28 GMT -5
I wish I could have just one battery platform - not possible. I was up to about 10 platforms, buy a tool because it's the 'best in class', etc., but too many batteries, too many chargers... I'm trying to be more streamlined. I agree with you that the (extended) Metabo platform is one of the best out there at the moment - I've no real complaints for now.
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 11, 2017 2:46:46 GMT -5
10 platforms! What a nightmare. I'd be terrified I'd left a spare battery or charger @ home, leaving me high & dry. In these days of battery charge gauges I suppose it's somewhat less of a disaster waiting to happen, but.... 10 platforms.... sheesh!
I'm in transition from 3 to 2. Bosch 36v @ home for mower, hedge trimmer, circular & recipro saws & a big drill & SDS hammer which need to go as they're essentially unused. I'm kinda stuck with this lot as the alternatives (Makita? Stihl?). aren't all that measurably better, for a replacement price that I could never justify. The other old site system is Bosch 18v. Recipro (another, no better) Drill (now comprehensively eclipsed by Metabo), mini grinder (surprisingly powerful), mini SDS (fantastic but now not really used any more) & rattler.
The new system is Metabo. Ideally I'd like to completely transition over, but it's hellish expensive to do so. Currently there's a drill (fantastic), SCMS (better than its price - a measly $270 - dictates), site light (incredible), grinder (surprisingly not appreciably better than the old Bosch) & hopefully this year an impact wrench, 9" grinder & Mafell x-cut/rail Saw. That's some $3-3.5K of investment in new tools, again rather hard to justify, but I'm hoping to have the means anyway over the next few months. The only new Bosch tools that seem to be markedly superior to the Metabo alternative/s are their latest recipro, (maybe) the latest EC grinder & all their SDS minis (which are still the best in the business). None or these tools are required, although a decent recipro would be nice.... Nah! I have a couple already, & only use them (rarely) for construction & demolition.
I'd love to have one of those Metabo GB 18 thread tapping drills too. The metalwork possibilities are amazing & almost endless! But $400 for a bare naked drill is just ludicrous!
Perhaps the sale of the last few smaller Bosch tools (plus a few other useless Festools) might make the changeover somewhat more affordable. It seems utterly pointless to retain unused tools any more. Even infrequently used power tools are rather a waste of capital, much better transferred into more useful kit. At least, that's how I justify my profligacy to myself anyway! What's your excuse?
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Post by aas on Oct 11, 2017 4:38:22 GMT -5
My excuse?.. I like to be compact - carry the minimum possible. I tried going down to 2 battery platforms - Metabo/Mafell 18v & 10.8v - but it's impossible. I still have some Makita 18v (& 14.4v that I want to get shot of).
I'm thinking the new Makita 10.8v will add some useful tools for me - specifically the super light SDS - I seldom need a heavy duty SDS, and I have the Makita 18v with vac attachment, which is a surprisingly capable drill. I would also add the angle impact (to replace the 14.4v) the multitool - not often used and I don't really get on with the Metabo due to the switch, plus heated jacket - I currently have the 14.4v - my workshop is around 1000m above sea level in the Alps, it is VERY cold here in winter!..
... and I would like to make a Franken-drill... Festool CXS to take Makita CXT batteries and the Metabo chucks... mmm... I know I can do it as I've already done mods a bit like this, but ripping apart a new drill... we'll see!
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Post by jm on Oct 12, 2017 18:49:15 GMT -5
That circular saw looks like a pretty legitimate upgrade. No other cordless circular saw I've seen has better dust management.
I have a pretty wide selection of the cordless Metabo line, and I agree some may not be top of the class, but with all you guys complaining about wanting only one battery platform, can you blame them? Sometimes it is a "filler tool", but no one brand can have the best of everything.
I'm in three platforms now, mostly Metabo 18v, but also Bosch and Milwaukee 12v. I plan to get into DeWalt Flexvolt next year as well, their nailer offerings are going to be best in class. Those alone will justify the platform themselves.
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Post by aas on Oct 13, 2017 6:57:22 GMT -5
I think that looks pretty good, even if it's not BL. Good to see another saw using the rail system I've invested in!
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 13, 2017 15:19:15 GMT -5
I stand corrected! Not for the first time, either. Much more grunt than I expected, & heaps more than the rather disappointing 4-pole Metabo saw I used to have. One problem with my old one was that it span fairly slowly. The new one seems much faster (rpm). . While it powers through 32mm softwood in x-cut mode, I wonder how it rips 38mm hardwood?
Just to confirm then: the 3 rail cutaways in the soleplate includes one for the skinny Bosch/Mafell format?
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Post by yetihunter on Oct 13, 2017 22:07:22 GMT -5
At the risk of being, both, a Debbie Downer and condescending, I shall unleash my two cents: I've been completely surprised by the notion that people are just now (past 3 years) finding out that Metabo exists through the Festool and Mafell forums. Festool and Mafell are a lot more niche. But I suppose I do understand if the North American woodworkers and cabinetmakers are not familiar with the brand. Metabo has never advertised to nor tried to enter that market (not here, at least).
Anyway, I replaced all of my Metabo stuff (except the angle grinder) with Festool and Mafell equivalents. Outside of rebranded Starmix vacs, I don't get why Festool and Mafell owners would be considering their offerings. It's a step down, in that arena. Metal fabrication and concrete are where Metabo shines. Angle grinders, angle grinders, rotary hammers and angle grinders. I'm not saying that their (wood) sanders and saws are bad. I'm saying that the green, red, baby and navy blue ones are definitely better.
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 14, 2017 0:02:37 GMT -5
I'll both agree & disagree quite vehemently with your assessment. I've had both Bosch & Metabo tools since the 70's. Metabo are indeed a fantastic grinder manufacturer. Possibly (& definitely in my own experience) the best. Yet their other primary, core range is in electric drills. Consistently in my experience as good or better than any other I've tried.
Bosch are also in this part of the professional market, but tend to lag a bit in terms of both range & overall performance. I dispute that Metabo make "better" rotary hammers, however. I've had both corded & cordless versions of both plus & max varieties, yet consider the Bosch equivalents in all 3 classes that I've owned to be truly superior.
The Metabo jigsaws that I've owned are the only tools that I consider sufficiently strong & robust to cut plate steel. I've never tried a Mafell jigsaw, so it's heavy steel capabilities are an o unknown. But they're clearly superior to the Festo/ol, AEG & Elu saws that I've had, & equalled only perhaps by my Bosch 135.
I've also been using Metabo's SXE 400 sanders for about 20 years or so, & find them to be streets ahead in exzenter mode of the awkward handling, poorly designed RO90 DX. The former is a well-mannered ergonomic delight whilst the latter is a diabolical, overpriced joke. I can buy four Metabo sanders plus a couple of Bosch deltas for less than the price of a RO90! Each of which will run rings around Festool's dog of a tool in their respective tasks. The Festool excels only in truly rapid material removal in rotary mode, but bucks, kicks & jumps so badly, & requires such a firm grip to control that it is near useless even in this role, too. The bigger Rotexes have much better manners.
I don't own a "turbo" sander myself, but I've used a few, and found that the local Uni arts faculty actually retired all their Festo/ol Rotex & ETS sanders in favour of Metabo's SXE450. Bosch also make a good 150mm random orbit too, which lacks the versatility of Metabo's version. For more dedicated duties, there's the olive green version of Mirka's random orbit range.
Metabo's cordless range hasn't historically been all that good. It took years for the company to properly address this sector. But there's worse ranges around too. Take Festool. Consistently about 5 years or so behind all the rest. Having wasted a cool grand or so on their hopeless cordless tools, I will never buy another. Ever.
In my experience, much of the current Metabo cordless range, however, is at or very close too the state of the art. Good enough for Mafell to market, in fact. And Collomix. And Rothenberger. Only Bosch currently offers a rival superior battery system (Metabo is already on version 2.2, however). Plus the range is now huge. Instead of just a handful of rather dubious tools like Festo offer, or Metabo did a decade or so ago, there's about 85 or 90 odd cordless offerings. Many of them class leaders, and many also unique.
Far from being just the specialist heavy industrial construction, mining, drill rig & polar exploration company they were a decade or so ago, I think the company has undertaken a bit of a renaissance of late, reinventing itself into more of a generalist construction/renovation tool company. In other words, a fairly well integrated tool range that complements Mafell.
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Post by aas on Oct 14, 2017 13:20:59 GMT -5
yetihunter : I had to quickly cut up some sheet material this week, and while I was carrying each piece around the other side of the building, I was leaving my KSS40 out front - out of sight. I didn't really have the choice. I'd have felt better if it was a Metabo being left in full view. Just because I have stacks of Mafell, Festool, Lamello, Mirka, etc... doesn't mean Metabo is a step down - it fills a need in my tool kit that the others don't.
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Post by huntsgemein on Nov 24, 2017 17:50:24 GMT -5
Has anybody tried the HO 18 LTX 20-82 cordless planer yet? Your comments or evaluation would be appreciated.
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