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Post by thedude306 on Dec 30, 2014 10:28:53 GMT -5
I am at the final stages of setting up my shop and I am wondering if any of you have had success using an alternative to a jointer.
I have been lucky that I have access to a big planer and a big jointer, but they take up a lot of floor space and are not very portable, and they are hard to store etc.
I just bought the dewalt 735 planer and have a helix head for it so the planer is covered but I am looking at what guys do for an alternative to a big (read long beds and heavy) jointer?
By looking at my projects and my scrap bin, most jointing is kept to under 30mm but I have done some thicker boards.
I have a nice router table so I guess that is an option for the thinner stuff. Not sure if using a track saw will leave me a glue joint ready joint, and it's going to be a PITB on narrow stock.
Any advice or do I just break down and buy the 8" jointer?
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Dec 30, 2014 11:01:12 GMT -5
Oooh, great query!!
First off, I'm excited about your planer setup! The DW 735 with Helix head is exactly the setup I've been looking at for myself, just a matter of waiting for the right job (and $$) to come along that I can justify the purchase. I would love to eventually see you start a thread about the tool and your experiences with it.
Regarding the jointer: I must admit that I came to woodworking from the remodeling field. As such, I've never been formally trained on many of these woodworking tools, so my knowledge is pieced together from articles, classes at my local Woodcraft, podcasts and web videos. That being said, my understanding is that we should rely on our thickness planers to to dimension our lumber, for a truly flat piece it should be jointed, whether in a machine or with a hand plane. I'm sure some of the furniture builders on here can elaborate, or at least set me straight.
Marc Spagnuolo has addressed the jointer question several times in his Wood Talk Online podcast, might be worth checking a few of them out.
I'm totally on board with you in being hesitant about purchasing a large, heavy machine like a jointer, but as I find myself buying more and more rough lumber for custom pieces for customers, I'm finding myself appreciating the utility a jointer would provide. Regarding models, the guys at my local Woodcraft speak very highly of the LARGE Jet combination machine they have in their workshop/classroom. It seems like a very nice machine, but for myself I think I will ultimately get a used 8" Powermatic. Probably not what you want to hear, but I'm going to cast a somewhat hesitant and only moderately informed vote for a jointer.....
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Post by thedude306 on Dec 30, 2014 11:59:13 GMT -5
I know... sometimes I just need to here it from another. My brother was over for coffee (it's his shop with the big jointer) and he agrees. Lots of times I don't do just edge jointing, I surface 7.5" ruff cut boards.
I was just looking for an alternative to the big machine. :-(
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Post by GhostFist on Dec 30, 2014 12:07:04 GMT -5
This is probably more a question of how often you're using it. In a professional shop that uses mainly solid wood for furniture, a full sized jointer and planer are must haves. The process is, joint a face and an edge then process the rest on a thicknesser/planer. Obviously this takes up valuable floor space. A track saw should be able to give you a glue ready jointed edge fairly quickly but it won't do a face as easily. I've seen jigs where you can mount a workpiece on so it won't wobble in the planer to give you that flat face without a jointer. I'll see if I can dig up a video for you.
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Post by GhostFist on Dec 30, 2014 12:22:05 GMT -5
Joint with a Thickness Planer:
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Dec 30, 2014 12:51:30 GMT -5
The ideal and by far the quickest is jointer / planer and thicknesser. I have seeing the vids using the router to flatten. To me it is totally wrong. The problem as far as I'm concerned with that method is it will take to long or that is my view also a router does not plane with grain. It will be like using a hand plane to plane across the grain. When planing any timber you need to plane with the grain not against or across. Which depending on what part of rotation it will be either across the grain, with the grain or against the grain. Then you will need to take either the hand planes or sanders to smooth the surface. Where if just using the jointer you will have surface that is flat and will only require a little sanding not a load like before or if it is to be high class a sharp smooth plane to remove the pitch lines left from the planer. In general joinery that step won't be nessary. At the moment if I want to flatten I just use my jack plane the only thing is it takes time and is not really practical if there is a lot to do and will take a bit too long. If you have only thicknesser. It is possible to make flattening board then putting the timber with the bow up. Then put any packers or wedges around the edges to stop it rocking then just tickle the top with thicknesser to get a flat surface then mark the face. Which is properly along the lines I will go at a later date. Then to get a square edge and straight edge I will either use the track saw or table saw. Then I just the jack plane to smooth the edge an as long as it is reasonably straight it won't take much effort. Then mark the edge. Then thickness the timber only plane the edges that are not marked face or edge. In a perfect set up the way I work is to face and edge all the timber and put in the relevant piles. Then I wil start on the widest thickness and thickness all that correspond to that size work my way up finishing with the narrow pieces. Any thin and high stock I will put 2 or 3 pieces at once. Also if the stock is short I will make sure there is a continuation of the pieces which helps to prevent snipe. What size of timber do you intend to dimension
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Post by jalvis on Dec 30, 2014 13:18:29 GMT -5
This is a tool that can't be duplicated and is a must for high quality woodworking. Get the heaviest, longest, and most powerful you can afford. Also don't be afraid of a used machine because even new machines must be tuned(especially the imported Asian stuff). Be prepared to throw another $200 on a long accurate strait edge to tune it properly. Any compromises you pay for later. Been there done that.
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Post by thedude306 on Dec 30, 2014 16:44:02 GMT -5
ya, the question I didn't want answered because I knew the answer. I'm just a DIY guy that does the odd kitchen.
I am going to look for some old iron (might get a bigger machine for less money) but in the event that doesn't come through in a timely matter;
What machine would you buy?
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questa
Junior Member
Posts: 62 
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Post by questa on Dec 30, 2014 16:47:40 GMT -5
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Post by toomanytoys on Dec 30, 2014 17:42:06 GMT -5
Since you're DIY with infrequent use .....
You've got Bosch and probably Mafell rails, all of which combine in a straight manner. Pick up the Bosch router plate that goes with your Bosch (and Mafell) rails and use the router with the rails to do the edge jointing, straight, smooth and should be 90 degrees to the face.
not going to help you with flattening ......
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Post by mick on Dec 30, 2014 17:51:06 GMT -5
As said you can't beat a jointer as you have the dewalt this is probity not much youse to you but I would keep a eye out for a surface / thicknesser my father had one in his shop an old heavy one but the two in one saved space and worked well.
Over here you can pick old ones up at good price and for the money I think they are fare better than equivalent cost wise as a new one
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Post by GhostFist on Dec 30, 2014 18:17:27 GMT -5
Check the vid I posted. Especially if you're diy.
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Post by Knight Woodworks on Dec 30, 2014 18:38:15 GMT -5
Dude,
The answer is - It depends on what you want to make and how carefully can you pick your stock.
Early in my career I bought one of the first portable thickness planers available. With that machine I made coffee tables, hope chests, jewelry boxes, cutting boards, shadow boxes, and many other things including hundreds of cabinet doors. All without a power jointer.
Pick your stock carefully, twisted boards are a pain, thought they can be flattened with a planer sled as shown in the vid or with a router.
Better to pick material that is flat or at worst is slightly cupped. Cut to length, allowing a few extra inches. Joint an edge and rip the rough sawn stock to a slightly oversize width. Now plane one face taking very light passes, by very light I mean 1/128-1/64. Once the face is flat you can flip it and plane the other face more aggressively.
For cabinet door rail and stile stock I suggest getting 8/4 or 10/4 boards as true as you can find. Cut to apx length and lightly plane one face. Put the planed face down. Now rip slightly oversize, ie if you want 3/4" stuff make it 7/8"-, then plane to thickness and rip to width. By buying thick stock, turning it 90* and ripping it to thickness you are essentially making quarter sawn boards which are more stable than the commonly available flat sawn.
After getting by without one for ten years, I finally got an opportunity to buy a third hand Delta 8" jointer at a price I could afford. I jumped on it like a staving coyote on a road kill deer. Years later I still have that machine and am glad I do.
I suggest that the take away from this is- You probably can do without a jointer, you probably wouldn't want too once you start woodworking in ernest.
John
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Post by thedude306 on Dec 30, 2014 19:56:09 GMT -5
Check the vid I posted. Especially if you're diy. For some reason that didn't come up on my phone earlier. That is definitely a good way to do it. And most likely the way I will start until it frustrates me and I buy a jointer. Well, that's the crux. I am use to having a planer. I just never realized how much until the last couple days or so when I have started exploring alternatives. Like everywhere, wood selection can be good...or bad. That is what i currently do now. I have the router plate already. It's not the edges I am worried about, it's the flattening. Maybe a DIY is to loose a term. I don't pay the bills with what I do but I am more then a DIY even though I use the term. Thanks for all the great advice |
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Post by jalvis on Dec 30, 2014 22:42:49 GMT -5
Sorry. All other options will bring disappointment. I would rather buy a cheap 6" and tune it well then not have a jointer at all. Start searching Craigslist and a good deal will find you.
I had an old Rockwell that I got for $150. Cleaned and tuned it up for another $50 and had myself an awesome machine. It hurt to sell when I upgraded to a 16"
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