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Post by checkmax on Aug 1, 2014 18:01:53 GMT -5
Hi All,
My first post. I was reading the FOG blog for several months as I had decided to make some investments in quality woodworking tools. I recently purchased a Domino XL (great tool) and was ready to buy a TS75 when I came across the Mafell name. After some research and further understanding of their saw offerings - I am in a quandary - which to buy?
I appreciate the Festool system approach; though I have always been abeliever in the best tool for the job. So I'm looking for everything in one tool (!). Currently I cut sheet goods and a lot of dimensional lumber. Pulling out the worm drive, level, clamps and speed square is a pain in the arse. I have Bosch 4100 I lug out when I need to cut shorter pieces but it's literally have to lug out and set-up. I like the TS depth capability because I can cut 8/4 lumber which I am considering for a door project. So some other projects include playset for the little ones which would likely have 2x dimensional lumber and some larger 4x pieces. Shelving and cabinets as well as some ideas for outdoor furniture.
I love the KSS300 system though I am wondering whether it's depth of cut is too shallow for all around use and whether it can cut clean enough for glue ready edge. Any experience with that? I have been leaning toward the kss400 as result as a compromise; However, I fear when you compromise everything you get nothing. Not to say the kss400 is a nothing saw, I have read some great reviews on-line. I am really liking the kss80ec though am struggling to justify the cost and it may be too big for the first saw.
It's unclear to me how the rail system works and what is actually interchangeable between saws. I know the kss80ec has it's unique rail. I think the kss300 and kss400 rails are interchangeable - at least one way - 300 to 400. Do all these saws including the MT55 work on the standard rail?
Anyhow any thoughts or suggestions on what to start with would be very helpful.
Thanks
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Aug 1, 2014 19:37:12 GMT -5
Never an easy choice when there is so many options. I don't know where you live in relation to the other Members that stay in North America. There is some like ghostfish who has the kss300 who loves it. There is also tomg how has the kss400. Which I'm sure he said it had changed his work habbits and transformed some of them. There is a few of the other members with the mt55. I myself have a couple of the kss400 type saws, one of which is cordless as at the moment the sites I work on are not keen if you use electric or like to make it hard to get power. I've had the kss system for almost 3 years. To me it is one of the most universal saw system and doesn't compromise in any way, be it the 300,400 or 80. The 300 and 400 are both capable of producing glue ready joints most of the time. The mt55 I would say is a little bit more refined in that area. If you are doing more furniture grade work the I would say go for the mt55. Then of it is more geared towards general joinery likes of framing roofs floors etc then the kss400. If you are moving set ups all the time finishing laminate flooring etc then the kss300. The kss300 will work on standard F type rails at 90 then when you want to beval cut the there is some sort of issue that it won't work. On the rails like it does on its own cross cut rail or flexi rail. Both the kss40 and kss80s own cross cut rails are the same thickness as the F rails so the cut line should be same regardless of being the cross cut rail or the F fails
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Post by 7 on Aug 1, 2014 23:28:55 GMT -5
The KSS 300 & 400 come with their own KSS rail (attached to the saw). This would get rid of your speed square monotony.
The KSS 300 rides the F rails but will not bevel without cutting into the splinter guard. The 400 will ride the F rails and bevel properly. The MT55 is the best for use with sheet goods but is a bad fit for framing tasks.
I was in the same boat you are, almost exactly, looking at Festool and then hearing the name Mafell and getting curious.
Max depth with the KSS 300 cuts 2x material but just barely...not much more...depth of 1 9/16", might be too shallow for some of your uses but it's a really amazing tool. They are all awesome tools.
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Post by checkmax on Aug 2, 2014 20:45:35 GMT -5
Thanks guys for quick response. I've poked around and read some of the earlier posts from Tom and 7 regarding their saw deliberations. 7 - what did you end up going with? Are the F rails compatible with all saws? Sounds like except for the 300 which is 90° only. Do they two piece connections work well? If I have to rip 4x8 sheets, are you satisfied with the two piece rail? I have read plenty of gripes about the festool system.
It seems to me the best uses are mt55 for fine joinery, 300 for portability and cutting up flat stock on site, 400 for thicker pieces, kss80ec for framing and rafters. Anyone have experience with cut quality for kss80ec on sheet goods?
Of course, there will be the old timers who claim a circle saw and hammer is all they need to build a house. A circle saw and speed square is about a tenth of the kss80ec cost. Is there ten times the benefit with that one? Or 5 with kss300? I'm guessing speed to cut and accuracy of cut plus ability to repeat identical results is the difference.
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Aug 3, 2014 3:03:12 GMT -5
Yeah your assumptions of all the saws I would say is pretty spot on. As far as I know Tom got the kss 400 and also the mt55 he did also get the 300, which I think he has sold. He is FOG just direct message him. I'm sure he will be more than happy to explain his reasons and thoughts. On the kss rails the 300, 370, and 400 refers to the cut distance in maximum thickness material at full depth. With the 400 in 18mm material I can cut approximately 480 mm with the blade at full depth. On the cut quality of the kss80 in sheet goods best to ask Woodie. I'm sure he said it was equal to the ts75. I have the older ksp85 using it on sheet goods with the F rails there is no difference in the cut quality compared to the kss400. The only difference is weight of the saw when picking it up off the rail or placing it on the rail. Pushing it along the rail the difference feels very small. Woodie will be the best person to ask on he finds the kss80. I little bit wish when I had got the ksp85 the kss80 had being out. Dust collection using the 400 I would guess is around 90-95% when I do use the vac. Regarding the old timers. At the moment I'm just working myself on site and the only joiner there all the time. They do send down other squads for the likes of the roofs. I'm not the crazy to try to myself. When it comes to the floor joists and flooring they do also normally send down a squad, but sometimes it's not possible. On a squad of 3 joiners it takes about the day to do the joists and floor. Just on my own with the kss400 I almost manage to do all the joists and flooring in the day. The site agents where shocked at how much I had got done in 1 day. It only took a couple of hours the next day to finish off. I'm not the quickest worker I just try to be organized and efficient. Using the kss400 allows me to cut 4/5 4x2 studs all at once. A little bit quicker than loading up a chop saw to cut the studs individually
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Post by checkmax on Aug 26, 2014 17:50:13 GMT -5
Hi,
Could someone confirm what size rail is minimum to cross-cut a 4' x 8' sheet? I assume it's the F160 and the F110 iss too short. However, the F110 is good to use with the Angle Fence. Is that fair to say?
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Aug 26, 2014 18:55:57 GMT -5
Hi, Could someone confirm what size rail is minimum to cross-cut a 4' x 8' sheet? I assume it's the F160 and the F110 iss too short. However, the F110 is good to use with the Angle Fence. Is that fair to say? Hi Checkmax! I apologize for missing this thread earlier. Ok, for the tracks the F160 and F110 should work to cut 4x8 plywood, though they can be a little shortish (I prefer to have a full saw base worth of track beyond both ends of my material). The F110 and Angle Fence are perfect for crosscutting plywood. I really don't like fussing with my tracks when I'm working, so I have two F160 tracks designated for cutting plywood on the 8' length, and a F110+Angle Fence for crosscuts. Yes, this means buying extra tracks, but once you're set up you can really move, without constantly stopping to jockey tracks. Basically, I own one of each length of track, plus an extra F160, plus an F80 track was damaged in transit so I cut it down to a custom F50 length. So, yeah I have significant investment in the F-tracks, but I feel like it really allows me to maximize my use of the track system.
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Post by checkmax on Aug 26, 2014 18:59:17 GMT -5
Thanks Tom
The F110 is listed at 32". I assume you're crosscutting plywood at those widths. For the full width plywood (48"), I assume the F160 is the minimum? I plan to add the F110 for the reasons you describe.
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Aug 26, 2014 19:27:27 GMT -5
Thanks Tom The F110 is listed at 32". I assume you're crosscutting plywood at those widths. For the full width plywood (48"), I assume the F160 is the minimum? I plan to add the F110 for the reasons you describe. The F110 PLUS the Angle Fence is great for crosscutting, but if you're just using a track then you'll want the F160. Also, I think you and I have discussed this in private, but if you are cutting BOTH dimensional lumber and plywood, I'd steer you towards the KSS-400. Granted, the MT-55cc is a premier plywood saw, but the KSS-400 is much more versatile, and with the proper blade and handling it will provide great results when cutting finished plywood. KSS-400= Maximum versatility and great cut quality MT-55cc= Premier cut quality, great panel saw but limited use for dimensional lumber
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Post by meta7physical on Aug 26, 2014 21:11:31 GMT -5
Hey guys quick question as well. I was just wondering what systainer size would the kss 400 would fit in? I'm also flip flopping between the two saws.
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Post by 7 on Aug 26, 2014 22:22:27 GMT -5
KSS 400 fits in the same one as the MT55 as long as the track is removed. I am almost positive that it is a SYS 3 size. You are left with a little bit of room around the saw in the SYS 3 so you would want to make a custom insert for it so the saw wouldn't bang around in the box when moved.
Edit- I think it is actually a sys 4...but for sure the same one the MT55 comes in (whichever that is i physically put the 400 in it to check)
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Post by checkmax on Aug 26, 2014 23:01:27 GMT -5
Ah I think understand the discrepancy. The F110 plus the Angle Fence gets you to the 48" for a full width sheet crosscut?
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Aug 26, 2014 23:05:01 GMT -5
Ah I think understand the discrepancy. The F110 plus the Angle Fence gets you to the 48" for a full width sheet crosscut? Correctamundo! I don't remember the exact dimensions, but yes, the F110 plus the Angle Fence will crosscut a 4x8 sheet nicely. If you're cutting angles, you might need the F160.
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Post by checkmax on Aug 26, 2014 23:06:00 GMT -5
Ah I think understand the discrepancy. The F110 plus the Angle Fence gets you to the 48" for a full width sheet crosscut?
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Post by meta7physical on Aug 27, 2014 0:26:14 GMT -5
Thanks guys!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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