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Post by garagegrump on Sept 21, 2020 8:47:05 GMT -5
For a while I have been under the impression that Metabo (and Mafell) had two voltage options - 18V and 10.8V
But I note that the Metabo 10.8V stuff is getting hard to find (in Australia), while a newer "12V" line is appearing (bringing brushless tech along with it). The new is not compatible with the old (slide style battery instead of "stick" style). Haven't seen any mention of this on these forums so wondered if it had been noticed, or if anyone had played with the new "12V" Metabo offerings?
Could this mean that Mafell will also have a replacement for the A 10 in due course?
All three lines (10.8, 12 and 18) are listed/advertised on Metabos website.
Metabo make a converter to enable the new slide battery to mate to the older 10.8V tools, so one has to assume that this is a rebranding of 10.8V to "12V" (like everyone else - you cant get 12V out of a Li battery) while simultaneously updating the battery layout.
The reason for my interest is that I am in the process of updating my cordless stuff and will at least be adopting Metabo for 18V - just ordered a BS 18 LTX BLQI (what a mouthful!). I plan on later getting the SDS machine for masonry, and the impact wrench and I'll be set. I also have the option of an 18V KSS saw in the same battery family.
However, I was thinking of going to the smaller class for an impact driver and a second drill/screwdriver, and the Quick-chuck (such an unfortunate name) on the Metabo POWERMAXX BS 12 BL Q looks appealing for that. Anyone tried one?
Cheers.
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Post by huntsgemein on Sept 21, 2020 10:41:44 GMT -5
Have the drill/driver & rattler, both EC motored. More power (EC), capacity (10/25 mm) & speed (1650 RPM) than before.
Not actually 12V. No (Lithium powered) tools are. None whatsoever, at all, any more. Lithium batteries are only available in 3.6 V increments.
Made in East Asia (Communist PRC). Marginally smaller & slightly lighter than 18V equivalent. 840G bare tool w/o battery. Substantially heavier & larger than a Powermaxx, 'though.
4.0 AH Li-HD batteries are tiny yet reasonably capacious, 2.0 AH batteries are tinier & not capacious. With a 4.0 both drill & rattler seen like a nice ergonomic package & performance compromise. With the (non-Li-HD) 2.0 AH battery it's a bit weak & top-heavy. Batteries are compatible with all other CAS chargers.
There's an adapter available (625225000) to use the "new" batteries (12v) in any powermaxx (10.8 V) tool. But not vice versa.
Quick chuck (3/8"/10 mm) is metal/plastic, & interchangeable with other Metabo & Fuss-tool quick chucks. Angle & offset drive accessory chucks are fanatstic, solid, substantial & seem to be robust & long-lasting. I have 1/2" all-metal & metal/plastic quick chucks on my 18v drill & tapper, & don't really notice any difference, other than the knurling on the all-metal variety IS easier to grip with sweaty hands BUT will also mar delicate finishes much more readily than a plastic encased equivalent will.
Whilst noticeably more powerful & versatile than their Powermaxx predecessors, I'm unsure where these tools fit into the Professional tool scene. They're nicely & conveniently compact & lightweight, but candidly put won't withstand the rigours of a professional, commercial or industrial worksite. I'd realistically consider them to be lightweight, convenient & useful household tools that might also be well suited to the smaller hands of women & children. Think "Festool" & you'll understand.
They'd also be eminently suited to precision work involving the construction & installation of fine cabinet fixtures & delicate & expensive electrical & plumbing fixtures. In the same manner as their Powermaxx predecessors were, but with increased capacities & versatility. But they're unsuited to building construction, pop riveting, roofing or other heavy duty or high-speed tasks or applications. Common sense, really. As with Festool's cordless range they're precision handyman-grade cabinetmaker's tools rather than the robust professional hard-working heavy-duty construction tools available from the CAS.
I simply wouldn't even consider buying a "12V" hammer drill. Firstly, you lose the Quick accessory versatility (essential for installation work) & second hammer drills are just awful anyway. Crude, primitive, agonisingly loud & slow.
I might be wrong, but that tiny little grinder looks a bit like a silly little toy. I simply couldn't take something so small, weak & weird looking seriously.
The little mini-recipro however looks pretty good. The 25% longer cutting stroke is much more useful than my pretty woeful Powermaxx was. I love that they'll (both) fit jigsaw & larger recipro blades. Making them much more versatile, with the same cutting capacity of the 18v version.
Overall, the 12V range is simply a semi-downsized version of the 18v range. Unless you really need the precision & light weight of 12v tools I'd suggest that you'd be better served with "conventional" 18 equivalents: a compact BS 18 L BL Q is actually going to be a similar size & weight, & also eminently capable of precision work plus a little bit of extra capacity too. All those additional cabinetmaking quick chuck accessories also fit this particular 18v tool. Likewise the 18 V rattler is also capable of BOTH precision fastening AND heavy duty roofing screw tightening.
Unless your wife &/or kids are going to be regular users, why add the inconvenience of an additional battery size/voltage (even if they ARE charger-compatible) when it's essentially unnecessary?
Hope this helps. Any further Q's please ask. I can always tell you to sod off. (Joke - I'm happy to help).
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Post by aas on Sept 21, 2020 13:33:55 GMT -5
I have the A10M (sold almost all the Metabo 10,8v tools) and a Metabo 10,8v LED lamp; also an SB (percussion) LiHD 12v - it's a very competent drill, not too loud(!) and enough power for basic drilling and driving. The new batteries are much better, one of my gripes with the old sabre saw was the battery falling off due to vibration. The new batts can be charged on the same charger as the 18v's - a big improvement.
Mafell will not be releasing a new A10M with the new style batts.
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Post by garagegrump on Sept 21, 2020 22:40:06 GMT -5
Thanks both for your thoughts.
This is pretty much what I was thinking. Something with a little more maneuverability and precision. To be clear, my application is a mix of woodwork and home improvement stuff, not so much construction or metal.
I saw last night that Metabo has a range of "installation" attachments (offset chuck, right angle, etc) for the 12V which would be very useful in both WW and DIY.
I am less concerned about having two battery systems if they are in different size/utility classes. The fact that the 12V and the 18V will now go on the same charger is an added boon. I would be less cool with having two 18V platforms.
I'll settle in with the BS 18 LTX BL QI for now and see which way I jump next (very nearly tried to import an LTX-3 but then I'd still need to get the batteries locally). Should still be a massive improvement over the old brushed Bosch.
That is a shame. I haven't found many options in the 10.8 stick batteries (converter notwithstanding).
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Post by holmz on Sept 22, 2020 5:07:17 GMT -5
I have both the A10M and the Metabo sausage gun in 10.8 ... and they cop a floggin... and work like a champ.
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Post by huntsgemein on Sept 22, 2020 5:31:57 GMT -5
Compare the pair: in regard to specs, there's bugger-all diff. Only 300g extra weight, & they both take those offset & angle drive accessories, too. You still get a "handyman spec" drill but with a bit more speed, versatility & a whole lot more convenience. www.metabo.com/com/en/tools/battery-pack-systems/12-volt-class/cordless-drill-screwdriver/powermaxx-bs-12-bl-q-601039800-cordless-drill-screwdriver.htmlwww.metabo.com/com/en/tools/battery-pack-systems/18-volt-class/cordless-drill-screwdriver/bs-18-l-bl-q-602327800-cordless-drill-screwdriver.htmlSame deal with the rattlers: only 300 grams difference, but with a whole lot more overall power & versatility. www.metabo.com/com/en/tools/battery-pack-systems/12-volt-class/cordless-impact-drivers-wrenches/powermaxx-ssd-12-bl-601115800-cordless-impact-driver.htmlwww.metabo.com/com/en/tools/battery-pack-systems/18-volt-class/cordless-impact-drivers-wrenches/ssd-18-ltx-200-bl-602396520-cordless-impact-driver.htmlSame with the Mini Recipro saws too. Only 300G the difference. I'd suggest this is down to the battery packs. In other words the bare tools (both 12 & 18 V iterations) are similar weights, but the extra 2 battery cells in the battery packs account for the extra 300g of weight overall. So if the tools are the same weight & basically of similar size then there's surely little justification in opting for the lower powered version/s. So I still say "why bother" with the inconvenience & expense of 2-3 12V batteries (not to mention the cost of the "extra" unnecessary charger/s) when you can be using your existing, already purchased 18V batteries in your newly acquired compact 18V tools instead? As an owner & user of all 3 systems - 10.8, 12 & 18V - I'd consider my current 18V Metabo Drills to be "lifetime tools" in terms of quality & utility, whereas I've always been pretty dubious of the Powermaxx range (also had the old German 4.8V Ni-Cad version) & the jury is still out on the newer 12V versions. The 18V tools - even the L & LT ranges - are just 'better" in my opinion. The LTX range of course are probably the best, most powerful, sophisticated & useful drills on the market. My BS 18 LTX-3 BL Q I & GB 18 LTX BL Q I are amazing tools, quite unlike anything else on the market & offer unequalled & unprecedented features, power & versatility. That killer combination of a 3600 RPM top speed with Impulse drive absolutely blows me away each & every time I need to use it. It literally smokes any other drill I've ever used. Likewise, the Tapper's auto reverse/forward pressure sensitive cycling is superbly intuitive & useful for carefully & accurately running screw threads, even down to the square tap shank recess in the chuck. I've even bored 7" post holes with a soil auger in the garden using the torque multiplier attachment. Try doing that with any other cordless drill! I'd easily concede that the rest of Metabo's cordless range is probably reproduced better elsewhere by other quality manufacturers, but not, never, no way in 18V Drills. Whereas my opinion of the 12v version is basically "meh".
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Post by garagegrump on Sept 22, 2020 10:21:08 GMT -5
I got my BS 18 LTX BLQI today. Extra impetus came from the fact that Metabo AUS is running a redemption offer which should yield me a free third 4.0Ah battery.
Had a bit of a play before I got back to holiday chores. And holy sh*t, brushless is definitely a thing. The trigger and speed progression are excellent. Both a spade-bit at speed and a 8G screw felt very under control, whereas the old Bosch felt like it had a hair-trigger at times. Also find the "soft-start" fairly intuitive and it provides that little bit of extra slow-start-time which I can see being very useful starting a carefully placed hole.
I look forward to playing with it more, but will now get back to staring at a 100 yr old sash window which won't repair itself...
Cheers.
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Post by lincoln on Sept 22, 2020 16:27:57 GMT -5
I saw that redemption, good deal. Have contacted Metabo Aus twice lately, asking about the new cordless vacuum...still waiting for a reply.
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Post by garagegrump on Sept 24, 2020 1:15:58 GMT -5
I saw that redemption, good deal. Have contacted Metabo Aus twice lately, asking about the new cordless vacuum...still waiting for a reply. I found them to be responsive to my question. Didn't like the answer, though: BS 18 LTX-3 is not coming to Aus.
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Post by aas on Sept 24, 2020 13:43:12 GMT -5
So I still say "why bother" with the inconvenience & expense of 2-3 12V batteries (not to mention the cost of the "extra" unnecessary charger/s) when you can be using your existing, already purchased 18V batteries in your newly acquired compact 18V tools instead? I guess it depends what you're doing... hanging 2 or 3 drills off your belt is doable in 12v - not in 18v... can't imagine an 18v SDS on a belt clip!
I have a Sys4 with about 15+ 12v tools in (Makita) - it covers a lot of jobs - in one toolbox - I couldn't do that with a case full of 18v tools.
Of course, for all of the tools in the 12v toolbox, I have an equivalent in 18v and mains - so no it's not a one stop solution - but they definitely have their place.
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Post by huntsgemein on Sept 25, 2020 1:09:01 GMT -5
Apart from the batteries, the new Metabo 12V stuff is actually no smaller or lighter than the "conventional" 18V equivalent!
It's just lower in both power & runtime.
Plus the range is (so far) limited to an effective range of only 6 tools, all with similarly sized & weighted 18v equivalents.
Not the case with competitors' products - Makita, Milwaukee & maybe Bosch - which all have quite different & much physically smaller & lighter 12v ranges, but I consider Metabo's range to be a rather stillborn & de-tuned range of conventional 18v tools.
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Post by matchesder on Sept 25, 2020 8:54:23 GMT -5
Could this mean that Mafell will also have a replacement for the A 10 in due course? Given the A18 is based on a Metabo that is not listed on theyre website for a while now (with the extra button on the top to switch between impuls and regular), I don't expect the A10 to change soon. Not actually 12V. No (Lithium powered) tools are. None whatsoever, at all, any more. Lithium batteries are only available in 3.6 V increments. I take it as a name for a category. More reasonable maybe rounding to 11 V. But ehh, marketing or whatever. I think recent 12 V class drills are so powerful, they can be more than enough for a lot of tasks. But yes, I see your point that 18 V is more versatile in lots of cases.
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Post by holmz on Sept 25, 2020 18:26:51 GMT -5
Well the first tool I got was the A10M, it is pretty ideal for cabinet type of work and most everything that does not prequire the super manly torque.
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Post by aas on Sept 26, 2020 0:59:37 GMT -5
I consider Metabo's range to be a rather stillborn & de-tuned range of conventional 18v tools. Agree with you here.
For me, it's not the weight of the tools, it's the batteries. Take Fein as an example, I have a couple of 12v 3ah batts for the grinder and multitool for those times I need to do some more delicate work and don't want the 18v 6ah hanging off the back - doing work isn't just a question of power.
For my Makita 10,8v (12v) tools, I only have the tiny 2ah batts - I don't see the point in having a lightweight low power tool and putting a big battery on it - I have more powerful tools for when I need it.
Maybe if I wasn't working and needed tools for my own projects, I'd be happy just having one set of tools - I'd probably go with the 18v tools and get some 2ah batts for the lightweight work.
I think Fein have got it right in this instance, the 18v tools can be used with the 12v batts. It's a shame Metabo haven't done the same thing.
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