|
|
Post by Red on Sept 25, 2015 14:20:05 GMT -5
As I didn't know the difference between it and the domino or duo-dowel type joiners, I originally posted a thread on the Lamello board. Thanks to the folks who posted to that thread, I now understand that we'll be needing either a domino- or a dowel-type joiner system.
As this is the Duo-Dowel (DD) board, I'd like to ask the board members about the DD40P and, more specifically, about using it with Mafell's large bits (i.e., 14 thru 16.2 mm).
Does the DD40P work just as well under the large load being drawn by the large bits?
Has anyone working in the US had any trouble finding dowels that work well with this system?
Does anyone have any idea why Mafell offers incremental bit sizes like 16.2 mm? In other words, why the extra 0.2 mm?
Any other productive thoughts and/or experiences related to using the DD40P -- especially with large bits -- would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time,
Red  |
|
|
|
Post by Tom Gensmer on Sept 25, 2015 15:06:47 GMT -5
I own a DD40 P and just love it! I primarily use the 8mm dowels. The "P" model is geared down relative to the "G", presumably to handle the larger diameter bits.
For dowels I've been using Just Joinery (http://www.justjoinery.ca), great dowels at a fair price.
|
|
|
|
Post by Red on Sept 25, 2015 15:29:21 GMT -5
As you're a fellow joint cutter, I really appreciate the thoughts. We would probably get use out of several diameters, but I've got a heavy door project -- for a TF outbuilding -- that would suit the largest bit set very nicely. Thanks very much for the dowel source, as well, Tom G.
|
|
|
|
Post by skinee on Sept 25, 2015 16:04:06 GMT -5
I own the dd40p and have two 16mm bits,i bought them about 18 months ago on German ebay because they were quite cheap,i have not used them on a project yet but tried them on an offcut of pine,they cut through it like it was butter and the dd40p did not struggle at all,as to incremental sizes on bits,i believe this is not to do with dowel sizing so much but rather due to a miniscule amount of play between the 'teeth' in the dd40 and the 'teeth' of the template guide,if you place the dd40 into the template guide and wiggle it,you can feel a little play,miniscule but noticeable,a little play is necessary of course as if it was a tight friction fit it would be un-usable,add to this the wear and tear of inserting the teeth many hundreds or thousands of times(in the dd40 fence especially) with the template guide,this wear makes the play greater between the two sets of teeth over time and leads to inaccuracies,i think the longer the run of holes this small inaccuracy becomes multiplied and more pronounced,i came to this conclusion as I noticed that when making longer cabinets they were much,much harder to get clamped than shorter ones,so I think the .1 or .2 of a mm extra is to allow a little leeway without compromising the integrity of the joint,this is my assessment,it may not be correct,i would be interesting to hear other users opinions on this.
|
|
|
|
Post by holmz on Sept 25, 2015 16:59:12 GMT -5
If the machine was 2-mm out at 32-mm, it would cut 30-mm spacing on every board.
If the rail guide were off then the hoes would off on every board that the guide it was used on, but unless the rail were rotated 180 degrees all the holes would align.
Even if the DD40 were off exis, the pieces would align with the ends not matching by twice the off axis amount.
One could use a pice of MDF and free hand drill a template with a forstner bit and it applies the same.
Red - when put put a Cummin's cylinder head onto an engine, I think that you align some dowel pins that indexes onto the engine aligned.
Pn wood, one could use a 16-mm down glued in on one side a free floating in 16.2 on the removable side.
Or maybe it is for something else entirely...
|
|
|
|
Post by lincoln on Sept 25, 2015 17:21:11 GMT -5
I'd say the .2mm oversize bits are for non glued/removable components. Or, maybe, for use with the expanding polyurethane type glues?
|
|
|
|
Post by Red on Sept 26, 2015 12:11:52 GMT -5
I own the dd40p and have two 16mm bits,i bought them about 18 months ago on German ebay because they were quite cheap,i have not used them on a project yet but tried them on an offcut of pine,they cut through it like it was butter and the dd40p did not struggle at all,as to incremental sizes on bits,i believe this is not to do with dowel sizing so much but rather due to a miniscule amount of play between the 'teeth' in the dd40 and the 'teeth' of the template guide,if you place the dd40 into the template guide and wiggle it,you can feel a little play,miniscule but noticeable,a little play is necessary of course as if it was a tight friction fit it would be un-usable,add to this the wear and tear of inserting the teeth many hundreds or thousands of times(in the dd40 fence especially) with the template guide,this wear makes the play greater between the two sets of teeth over time and leads to inaccuracies,i think the longer the run of holes this small inaccuracy becomes multiplied and more pronounced,i came to this conclusion as I noticed that when making longer cabinets they were much,much harder to get clamped than shorter ones,so I think the .1 or .2 of a mm extra is to allow a little leeway without compromising the integrity of the joint,this is my assessment,it may not be correct,i would be interesting to hear other users opinions on this.
I realize that this tool is electro-mechanical, like most of the others we discuss on the MUF, so wear and tear are inevitable...but your words about having difficulty with longer runs of mortises have me wondering...when you get a few minutes, please elaborate. |
|
|
|
Post by wrightwoodwork on Sept 26, 2015 13:36:08 GMT -5
The reason for thier being cutters .2mm over is simply if there has being dowels that have swelled the can be entered. I personally have never noticed any wiggle movement of the guide rail as long as the dowelled is pushed tight in. If was building cabinets all the time I would properly look a bit more into lamello p system despite the high costs of the system I recon it will safe huge amounts of time on the glue up and assembly. When I was making the kitchen cabinets I felt I did loose time on the assembly. In fact I also think that as the cutter makes a t type groove then the special domino slips in t style groove which locks everything together and pulls both parts up without the faffing about with clamps
|
|
|
|
Post by lincoln on Sept 26, 2015 16:07:12 GMT -5
Yeah, my template rail is spot on - no play to speak of. Not sure how a slightly oversize drill bit relates to/fixes any 'slop' in the rail connection to the DD40 base?
Red, since having my DD40'P' - about 9 months - I've drilled a lot of 8mm/10mm/12mm dowell holes, and some 5mm shelf pin holes, and it's still as smooth and accurate as day 1.
The advantage of using dowells over standard biscuits is accuracy, both ways - ie. keeps the faces and edges of components flush, whereas biscuits only keep the faces flush. Also, you only need to leave clamps on for a few minutes, if your dowells are sized correctly.
|
|
|
|
Post by holmz on Sept 26, 2015 17:37:33 GMT -5
What is the slop 'numerically'?
A feeler gauge would say if whether it was 0.1mm or less or more.
Red I'll sell ou my 220v DX700 ad I have a full compliment of of large and small Systainers with the large and small dominoes, and the adapter from Seneca as well as Seneca plates for ply wood.
It even has an Eu Plugit cord
|
|
|
|
Post by skinee on Sept 27, 2015 6:22:06 GMT -5
Red, sorry for the delay in replying,I haven't been online since my last post,as I said the dd40p cuts well with the 16mm bits in pine,it may not in hardwoods I truthfully have not tried it,as to your other point,the dd40 has not become inaccurate due to prolonged use,it is a very durable machine and has maintained accuracy,the perceived wear and tear I was referring to was between the teeth in the fence/s on the machine and the teeth of the template guide,if you think about it,when new,all tolerances will be tight on both the teeth of the machines fences and the teeth of the template guide but not so tight as to be difficult to insert/extract easily,so already their is a minute difference in dimension between the two,at this point the difference is negligible,the teeth in both are aluminium however and even if both are adonized wear will take place over time due to rubbing,this will be more pronounced on the teeth of the machine as they are rubbing every time, whereas on the template guide less so as you are using different areas for different size projects,dowel joints are very unforgiving a very small amount out will make things difficult, my conclusions about this are simply my own thoughts,i am a joiner not an engineer and would not claim that this the only cause but for example if i dowel a 3ft length of ply i can clamp it quite easily but a 8ft length is much more difficult,this is using the exact same bits and dowels of course,my best guess is that after a lot of use the wear leads to a very small difference in the placement of the holes and is more pronounced on the longer piece due to cumulative error and the extra number of dowels being slightly 'out',this shouldn't put you off buying into dd40 system however as a bit sized even as little as 0.1mm will probably more than compensate for any wear after long use.
|
|
|
|
Post by holmz on Sept 27, 2015 6:57:53 GMT -5
The Error is not cumulative if the guide is clamped onto the material. The slop will be per pair of holes.
Even if the whole notched guide was heated in an oven to grow in length, the holes would be stretched on each side by the same amount.
Then if there was a mm gap on the DD40 the holes would be one way or the other by a mm - but all stretched the same.
|
|
|
|
Post by skinee on Sept 27, 2015 15:32:08 GMT -5
The Error is not cumulative if the guide is clamped onto the material. The slop will be per pair of holes. Even if the whole notched guide was heated in an oven to grow in length, the holes would be stretched on each side by the same amount. Then if there was a mm gap on the DD40 the holes would be one way or the other by a mm - but all stretched the same. holmz I defer to your superior knowledge of technical terminology,as I said I'm only a joiner not an engineer,but to reiterate, my best guess is that the longer the piece then the greater the scope for a very small inaccuracy to be apparent,the wear which I have talked about is very small,i don't own a feeler gauge and my digital caliper has been kaput since the battery compartment door broke off a few months ago so I can't measure it but I can feel it,if you remember the debate on FOG some time ago about the snugness or otherwise of dogs for the MFT table the difference in size of a snug fitting dog compared with one described as being a sloppy fit with discernible 'wiggle' was only a few hundredths of a mm,i think the wear over time between the teeth is more than this,now if you factor in the likelihood that in use a user by chance may at one stage hold the machine to say the 'extreme' left within this wiggle room and perhaps to the right or somewhere in between when cutting the opposite joint then the possibility of inaccuracy is obvious and the greater the length the more scope for this to happen will occur. |
|
|
|
Post by wrightwoodwork on Sept 27, 2015 16:51:10 GMT -5
People are over analazing things. The only rule for using template guide is to go from the same reference point. After maybe years of use you can get wear tear and a bit of minute slop. It's not a problem I've noticed. I'm a firm believer in that things will average themselves out.
|
|
|
|
Post by holmz on Sept 27, 2015 20:24:43 GMT -5
WW you're correct.
It is not a case of "technical terminology", but more along the lines of math, statistics, and logic.
If it was super sloppy and you always pushed it to the same corner the worst that would happen is a misalignment of the boards on the starting end.
It is a brilliant system with the notched guide rail.
For the Donino to compete it needs an indexing notched rail, but the wings serve that function to some extent. For the Domino any error builds as the current mortises are relative to previous ones, rather than an absolute from a notched rail.
I cannot imagine why one would want an oversized mortice unless they were expecting the slots to be miaaligned ?
All that aside with some glue I doubt the dominos would move. Even the small 5-mm dominoe result in a damned strong joint. They do not exactly fall apart even without glue.
|
|
