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Post by johannes on Aug 17, 2020 17:51:19 GMT -5
Hi, I was thinking of buying mafell and metabo cordless and wonder if you have any tips:
mafell: kss 40 + flexi guide metabo impact driver (SSD 18 LTX 200 BL) and drill driver (BS 18 LT Quick).
I was thinking of charger and battery. Would you buy pure and add the flexi guide separate and buy the charger and battery from metabo. Is a quick charger worth the money in your opinion? I was thinking of buying from metabo since it might be good to be able to use the drills with the same battery standard. Do you have any thoughts on that?
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Post by huntsgemein on Aug 18, 2020 0:02:30 GMT -5
Metabo's ASC 145 is currently their most powerful (read fastest) charger. Meaning that it's also the fastest in the Cordless Alliance. I think it's a good idea to have at least one, as with higher capacity batteries & high current tools becoming the norm these days, charge times will otherwise be tiresomely long. It's actually cheese & chalk: an ASC 145 will take only 1/3 the time to charge any battery compared to the fairly shitty 3.0 Ampere charger usually supplied in any random Cordless Alliance "Kit". We're talking about 1 hr. to charge an 8.0 AH Li-HD battery compared to about 3 Hours! Half those times for 4.0 AH Li-HDs. For those heavier users, or operators of "2 x 18 V" tools like Metabo's 9" grinder, bigger SDS hammer or TS 254 Sawbench, there's a doubly useful ASC 145 Duo charger that's just as fast, but with dual bays, plus USB outlets etc. It also charges all formats & voltages from 10.8 - 12.0 - 18.0 - 36V. Instantly making all other alternative chargers redundant, even the hideously expensive 3.0 Ampere 8-bay charger which - even if filled with 8 batteries - will still be slower at charging a set of batteries than a Duo will. At about 25-30% of the purchase price! www.metabo.com/com/en/tools/battery-pack-systems/accessories-for-cordless-machines/charger/dual-quick-charger-asc-145-duo-12-36-v-air-cooled-eu-627495000.htmlSome other standard tools such as saws & grinders can be fairly heavy on batteries, so a fast charger is usually a prudent choice in my opinion. This might, dependent on your intended intensity of use, include your KSS40. Given that you're likely to be getting "only" a 3.0 Ampere charger & a pair of 5.5 AH Li-HDs in a full KSS 40 kit, I think your proposed stratagem of purchasing Pure & Naked tools & adding appropriate battery & charger combinations is wise. As an addendum, I personally consider that for most hand-held Cordless Alliance drill-type products (including Impact Drivers, Riveters, etc.) that adding a 4.0 Li-HD battery is a far wiser proposition. I consider that an 8.0 AH battery is simply waaay too big & heavy for a standard drill. I'd also like to respectfully suggest that a 3-speed BS 18 LTX-3 BL Q I is going to be a much better (faster, lighter & infinitely more versatile) drill than any other cordless drilling machine than I've yet seen from either Metabo or indeed any other manufacturer. In fact, I'd go so far as to cheekily suggest that it's probably the very best cordless drill available anywhere, regardless of price. It's undoubtedly the very best that I've ever used. It's one of those rare tools that's equally at home boring 32mm augers through hardwood studs & 25mm holesaws through steel girders as it is in extra-high speed sheet metal drilling for pop-rivets. It also fits such additional accessories as right-angled drilling/driving adapter, hex adapter, 3 x torque & speed converter etc. As do all the other "Q" suffixed drill range. www.metabo.com/com/en/tools/battery-pack-systems/18-volt-class/cordless-drill-screwdriver/bs-18-ltx-3-bl-q-i-602355840-cordless-drill-screwdriver.htmlMy SSD 200 Impact is quite a useful & powerful driver, if perhaps not quite the equal to the very best from the likes of Makita (arguably currently the world's best) or maybe Milwaukee, another tradie's favourite. I personally have no complaints: it's certainly better than my old Bosch Impact Driver was.
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Post by aas on Aug 18, 2020 1:12:29 GMT -5
I always buy 'pure' - can great deals on LiHD batts, then you can get what you need. Huntsgemein is spot on the money with his reply. 4's for the drills; 8's (or 5,5's) for the saw; fast charger if you might need fast turn around. The SSD200 is excellent, does a lot of it's work without going into 'impact' mode, making in a lot quieter than a Makita (or at least all the Makita's I have/have owned). The LTX drills are better than the LT series.
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Post by johannes on Aug 18, 2020 16:22:48 GMT -5
First thanks for your replies both of you. Huntsgemein, you recommended the metabo BS 18 LTX-3 BL Q I, I can get a BS 18 LTX BL Q I for almost half the price. What is the difference, do you know? How do you get good deals for batteries? For me when I calculate the costs for a kss 40 with the flex guide rail and two 5,5 batteries ends up basically to the same cost if I buy pure or if I buy max. I was also thinking about the kss 40 vs kss 50.
With the 50 I can basically make all the cuts I would want to do but I think most of my cut will be for smaller depth of cuts so I can use the 40. I will do decking around and sidings on a house as my first project. Have you any opinion how much you use the 40 vs a bigger circular saw? Is the size of it worth that you can not make all the cuts? I have a bigger corded blue bosh with 70mm depth of cut so perhaps I have the answer already. But I would like your opinion on the versatility of the 40 vs 50 any way. Do you know what is the difference between the two versions fo the kss 40 produkte.mafell.de/en/sawing/cross-cutting-system/cordless-cross-cutting-system-kss-40-18m-blthe version up to a specific serial number and those after? E.g. order number 919802 vs 91B302? Is the Beeping motor a big problem? /Johannes
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Post by huntsgemein on Aug 18, 2020 20:02:14 GMT -5
So many Qs, Johannes! I'll try to answer step by step. The fundamental diff between the 2 drills is that 3rd. gear. With a 3.8K RPM top speed the "LTX-3" is the first drill that has both a reliable ultra-high speed gear (Makita tried & failed) & the prodigious torque in low gear for which Metabo/Mafell is justifiably famous (both Festool/Protool & Fein also tried with 4 gears & unfortunately ended up fairly gutless in comparison). The only use of that 3800 RPM top speed is for sheet metal work: drilling multiple layers of thin sheet metal with 1/8" bits (3mm approx) for pop rivets. Drilling anything else - structural steel, timber, plastics etc - requires much lower speeds even with tiny drill bits. But in sheet metal it's an absolute godsend. There's other, specialist, high speed cordless drills available (also from Metabo), but theyre going to be too fast & too gutless for any other task. Having it all combined in the one package is great for me, but if that's not your scene then the 2-speed version is realistically all the drill you'll ever need. I sold mine to another forum participant, who (I think) is as delighted with it as I was. I needed that xtra high speed, which is the sole reason I "updated". My own "LTX" drill was a fantastic tool. It has the same low speed gear of 500 RPM & the same 120 Nm of torque for all that extreme heavy duty drilling, but a slightly lower high gear max: 1850 RPM vs. 2050 RPM, & of course no 3rd gear. The other differences are superficial: the gears are changed longitudinally in the 2-speed drill, & radially in the 3-speed version. There's an excellent visual indication of the Impuls mode (flashing red lighted switch) on the upper rear of the 2-speed drill, whereas the 3-speed tool has it as an extended use of the speed/torque thumbwheel on the lower handle. Impulse mode is I believe unique to Metabo/Mafell, & is at times an extremely useful feature. Removing tough fasteners, accurately starting pilot holes in "slippery" hard steel, glass or ceramic tile surfaces. Hard to describe, but it works a treat. There's a variety of combo deals on battery/charger packages available from Metabo dealers/importers. Check your local Metabo website for details. Summat like this perhaps? www.metabo.com/com/en/accessories/accessories-for-cordless-machines/basic-sets/basic-set-4-x-lihd-8-0-ah-2-x-asc-145-duo-metaloc-685135000.htmlor mebbe this? www.metabo.com/com/en/accessories/accessories-for-cordless-machines/basic-sets/basic-set-2-x-lihd-4-0-ah-metaloc-685130000.htmlI don't have, nor have used the KSS40. Those who have seem pretty impressed. The combination of lightweight saw with limited cutting depth & single battery seems to be a bit of a "sweet spot" that larger saws aren't. I have cordless KSS50 & MT55 saws. My MT55 is an excellent saw for sheet material, less so for thicker hardwood naturally. The KSS 50 is, or rather was an excellent x-cutter & less successful ripping saw in hardwood. Unfortunately it failed a couple of years ago & I haven't been able to access the repair network to get it going again. Don't know what happened: one day, all that worked on the saw was the LED lights. Otherwise, it's dead! Somebody with more exposure & experience to other saw sizes could maybe answer more usefully than I. Having said that, I'd imagine a cordless KSS40 used for decking & siding docking to length & occasionally ripping to width would be a near-ideal use of the little saw's capacity. The KSS 50 & 60 - especially the latter - are more traditional builder's saw sizes for general house/building/commercial construction. Once ubiquitous on any building site, these saw sizes are perhaps slightly made redundant with the advent of corded & cordless SCMS. The major difference is in operation. You take the piece to the Miter Saw; you take your KSS x-cutter to the workpiece. The little KSS 40 seems to be more of a specialist flooring, decking & siding saw. The KSS 60 especially & to a lesser extent the KSS 50 are more geared towards framing/scantling/roofing tasks. They all unfortunately lack the extremely useful rafter hook to make them truly indispensible builders' saws. You can't realistically expect miracles from any 18V saw. The immutable laws of Physics apply here. You can only extract the equivalent maximum of some 1200-1600w of power from a Li-HD battery. The bigger the saw, the thicker & harder the material cut, the faster the battery drains. Hence the need for bigger 8.0 AH Li-HDs. I HAVE found that with the saws the 8.0s, with twice the number of battery cells wired in parallel, actually do it easier than the single-row 4.0s. Unsurprising, really. Bosch have a TRIPLE row 12.0 AH ProCore battery (their iteration of Sanyo-Panasonic Li-HDs) available for extreme duty applications. I've seen single Flexi-guide tracks available on occasion on UK flea-bay. Hope all this rambling helps.
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Post by aas on Aug 19, 2020 5:09:35 GMT -5
Johannes, where are you based?.. I get good batt deals from Germany. You can usually get newer generation batts buying Metabo than the packaged Mafell batts.
KSS40 is a great little saw. It will do most of what you want. I don't have the KSS50 but I do have the KSS60 - it is a framing saw and no comparison to the KSS40. If you need to do details and finish work, the KSS40 with the right blade will do it. Using a KSS50 with the extra bulk, weight and larger rail will get tiring very fast.
I have the Mafell A18M and the Metabo equivalent, BS 18 BL LTX Impulse Quick - 2 speed, perfect for what I use them. I have the Metabo 10mm high speed drill (BE something or other) for the high speed work. If I could only have one drill, I would get the 3 speed Huntsgemein mentions.
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Post by hecon5 on Aug 19, 2020 14:25:57 GMT -5
I'll second the bulk on the KSS60: It's a GREAT SAW, that definitely has a purpose. Details are not it's thing, though, because it is very heavy, and for trim work, I'd suggest something smaller.
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Post by johannes on Aug 19, 2020 16:06:05 GMT -5
Hi Aas. I live in Sweden so I was actually thinking of buying from Germany, both the saw and the metabo products. But I do not know how the warranty works if I buy from an other country. But I would think it is cheaper. Would you buy the saw form an other country as well? When it comes to pure vs kit I do not know if I would gain so much: I did a calculation based from buying from Germany: Buing a saw from germany + approx. postage of 20 Euro for each item: kss 40 Pure: 762 Euro doppelladengerät+2x5,5Ah: 316 Euro Flexi schiene: 158 Euro Total price: 1236 Euro To buy saw with 2x99Wh battery (is that not the same as the metabo Lihd 5,5Ah) but a slow charger and clamps 1097 Euro To only buy the doppelladengerät (dual charger) costs 158 euro. So what I could find if the batteries are the same then there is not a big difference in price. Do you get better deals? Thanks a lot for the tips and help from all of you. It is really helpful since I have no metabo cordless or mafell dealer where I live.
huntsgemein just that you took the time to write all the information, for that, thanks a lot. It is strange that they do not make it clear on the metabo webpage what the drills are good for and so on. It is like metabo tries to be coca cola, trying to convey a feeling of cool products more than information. At least for me it is very cumbersome to get good info like I did form you and aas. So on that note your rambling was much appreciated.
By the way. Do you guys that have used the BS 18 LTX-3 BL Q I, What batteries is best with it for balance and weigh? The same question for the impact driver (SSD 18 LTX 200 BL)?
Do you think they will make the kss40 as a 36V saw with better performance (wattage)? I could hold off the buy of the saw until next spring.
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Post by aas on Aug 20, 2020 15:59:54 GMT -5
I just picked up 4x Li-HD 5,5Ah for 291€ delivered from Germany. You can't get 'deals' on Mafell, they are price-fixing across Europe (using a questionable loophole - shame on you Mafell!)
I run a spreadsheet of what I want to buy and keep my eyes on prices - when I wanted some 8,0ah batts, I found an SB18LT that I didn't want selling with 8,0ah's for not a lot - sold off the drill with a pair of 2,0ah's that came with another tool on promo and kept the 8,0ah batts.
For your drills/impacts, you will want the 4,0ah batts, but these are not really suitable for the KSS40 - it runs better on 5,5's or 8,0's.
I got the 'pure' as I didn't see the need for the flexi rail - still don't have it and no desire to buy it.
The warranty across Europe is enshrined in European law. In the last 10 years I have purchased from UK, Spain, Italy, Germany, Austria, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden (and of course France) - I always register the warranty on the manufacturers website, never been an issue getting the warranty certificate through.
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