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Post by charley1968 on Apr 24, 2017 16:27:07 GMT -5
Hi! I thought i'd share my impressions of both drills. This is not an objective comparison, as i think that would be 'apples and oranges' insofar as the PDC is a percussion drill and the A18 is not. The focus for me is on ergonomics. Highly subjective matter, that: so i urge everyone who's planning to buy a drill to try it 'in real live' instead of just buying it because of the specs. Furthermore i'd like to inform the valued reader of the additional purchase of 2 smaller batteries for both drills, namely the Metabo 18v 3.1 Ah LiHD for the Mafell and the BPC 18 2,6 Ah for the Festool. Why? Cuz i thought and found that both batteries make the drills so much more ergonomical, not just in absolute weight but also in balance. I bought the PDC a year ago, after i've given my 18V Makita to my mother-in-law. Got the PDC for its four gears and max. RPM and the percussion function. The fact that it 'only' sports mediocre torque was known and appreciated, 'cause i almost knocked myself cold with the 98Nm Makita. So i never really missed the 30-odd Nm the PDC lacked compared to the Makita. The quality of the PDC appeared to be superior as well as the handling. Didn't fancy the 5,2 Ah battery, tho..too big, too heavy, too much capacity ( as i've never emptied a full 5 Ah battery in one go). Much , much better with the small battery. So, me happy customer.. Enter Mafell BST 460S.. Pretty early i realized that the raw power of a really strong drill was needed for angled holes of 20+mm diameter.Not that the PDC couldn't do it, it just started to sound really strained. That lead me to considering a corded driil solely for the BST. Fellow MUF member Henrik offered to sell me a A18 bl for a VERY decent price and the collector-ego in me took over: who could refrain from owning two of the most prestigious drills on the market, especially with a tax-refund coming up?? To be continued..
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Post by charley1968 on Apr 24, 2017 17:17:27 GMT -5
Cont. Down to the nitty-gritty: Scope of delivery PDC 2 5,2Ah batteries and charger Detachable handle Jacobs chuck ( plastic), max. 13mm Centrotec mini chuck Systainer 2 T-loc Scope of delivery A18 bl: (tack, Henrik!) 1 5,2 Ah battery + 1 3,1Ah Metabo LiHD battery and charger Detachable handle Jacobs chuck (metal) ASB bit holder Right-angle chuck Systainer 2 old-school Weight PDC w/ 5,2Ah battery: 1,9kg,no chuck w/ 2,6Ah battery: 1,6kg,no chuck Weight A18 w/ 5,2Ah: 1,72kg, no chuck w/ 3,1Ah: 1,58kg, no chuck Winner: Mafell Weight of Jacobs chuck: FT 0,24kg, Mafell 0,28kg Weight of bitholder/ Centrotec w/bitholder: both about 70g Opinion: both feel equally heavy, imo the FT has the edge for balance without chucks, but Mafell has the better balance with chucks. But that's polishing cannonballs..
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Post by charley1968 on Apr 24, 2017 17:37:40 GMT -5
Power: Ft PDC: soft: 40Nm, hard 60Nm A18: soft: 45-47Nm, hard 90 Nm
Winner: Mafell, hands down
Speed ranges: Ft PDC: 1. 0-400rpm 2. 0-850 3. 0-1850 4. 0-3800
A18: 1. 0-650 2. 0-2050
Winner: Festool
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Post by charley1968 on Apr 24, 2017 18:04:29 GMT -5
Likes and dislikes PDC: I like the overall balance of the drill especially with the Centrotec chuck. The drill fits well into my hand, i can manipulate the direction switch without repositioning the hand. You can choose to have lightning, which i like. I haven't found the gear-box to be sticky, though you might have to rev the motor to find a gear. Very good balance , especially with the smaller 2,6Ah battery. I heartily dislike the switch between drill mode and torque setting( i'll post a pic sometime). For drill mode you can set the switch on either side of the torque-settings. That means if you're not careful when setting torque 1, you might end up in drill mode and searching for the screw inside your workpiece. A bit of a miss, that.. The battery indicator is on the machine, a wee bit fiddly to reach for a quick check.
Likes and dislikes A18 bl: It's powerful. Then i very much like the button function to switch between drill mode and torque limitation on the one hand and drill mode -pulse mode on the other hand. That's nifty, 'cause i've sunk screws into the substrate because i had forgotten i was in drill mode. Now a quick check tells me that. The pulse function i thought was gimmicky, but it was quite useful today as i repositioned screws in our decking. The drill is very short, front-back; about 3 cm shorter than the PDC. I do not really like the balance of the drill with the 5,2 Ah battery attached but with the smaller Metabo battery it's just fine. The power: I used holesaws, max. 76mm in 18mm ply. Yawn. 25mm auger at a 45 deg. angle in 90mm pine: Dubble yawn, even in second gear. I haven't got a drill bit that can stop the drill, i think.
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 30, 2017 22:46:00 GMT -5
Eagerly awaiting the next instalment, Chuck. Each successive time I break out my own Metabo/Mafell drill (BS18 LTX BL Q) I'm more & more impressed. Had a couple of Festo's many years ago & was anything but impressed (too slow, too weak, short battery charge & overall life). My only criticism of the Metabo (& I'm kinda clutching at straws here) is that it's a tad heavy for longer-term sessions with the big battery (6.2AH). Having only one 3.1 AH battery to share between tools means that I rely on this one battery a lot. I think it might be time for a couple of those 3.5s when they land locally later this year.
What sounds really useful about the Festool is the sheer spread of speeds: super slow for bigger augers, holesaws etc., & maybe slow drilling bigger holes (1/2" or 13mm??) in thick steel. The super fast speed would I assume be just the ticket for those gazillions of 1/8" pop rivet holes I occasionally need to produce, not to mention those self drilling screws in sheet metal. I've found that impact drivers, whilst fast enough, are either "all or nothing", in that to drill effectively you need to hold the driver flat out & put plenty of pressure on. By the time you realise you've gone through both layers of steel, the screw has already overtightened, & either stripped or you've twisted its head off. A nice fast drill coupled with a sensitive clutch would be ideal to quickly & securely set all screws to the correct torque setting. Fast but finessed: the best of both worlds. How's the Festool for high torque auguring & pop riveting?
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Post by charley1968 on May 1, 2017 16:31:48 GMT -5
I cannot really say that gave the PDC the full work-out. What i can say is that it sounded strained with a 20mm auger in 180mm pine, but it did drill (1.gear). I imagine it would be better suited for metal work with its high speeds. And the drill has good trigger control.
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Post by henrun on May 5, 2017 23:37:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the write up.
I can chime in with some similar takes on the Festool DRC 18/4 (non percussion) vs the Mafell A18m Bl. But, my take on it would simply echo yours.
Likes with the Festool is LED Light. The DRC would be nice with the new 3,1 Li batteries. I am really not a fan of the 5,2+ batteries on any drill. Dislikes is the gear box. It takes a few tries to get it to third gear. Mostly I give up and go for second gear. The DRC was always a "three gear drill" for me. In fourth gear it is quite weak so effectively it was a two speed drill - despite having four gears...
Also, the DRC is quite weak in third gear (1850) but quite strong in second gear (850RPM) but for the big stuff it needs to be run in first gear (400RPM) and with the slow rpm it taaaaakeeeesss ssssoooooome tiiiiiime to run that long screw in.
The Mafell does REALLY well in 2nd gear (2050RPM) and has faster 1st gear for the heavy studd so whizz whizz whizz the Mafell really smokes the DRC for large diameter drilling and screw driving.
I did run into stuff where the DRC would actually struggle so downshifting gears to get to torque made for slow going in both drilling and driving.
Grip on the DRC is very good, bordering on excellent and a lot nicer than the Mafell for my hands. Weight, not too bad with the smaller batt's. Equally cumbersome with the larger batts and drill chuck but saving a little grace with the very nice grip.
The A18m easily replaces the DRC for me for several reasons:
Impuls Mode. Beast mode. (1st gear brute strength) Capacity in second gear is superb and gets me by with high enough speed drilling/driving for pretty much all applications without compromising performance. Very well balanced gear for speed/strength. Better drill chuck. Better bit chuck.
Since I work the drill 95% of the time with the drill chuck off I think the Mafell drill is very well balanced.
Grip on the A18m bl is very good - in use. It is better than expected - I write that because when you fondle the drill and compare to other drills the grip does not stand out as anything special. A little to thick I think. In use it does not bother me as much as I thought but I still wish it was a little bit slimmer since I do some work with gloves on. The grip on the Mafell is the main point where they could improve.
I really don't enjoy swinging the A18m around with drill chuck on and 5,2/5,5Ah battery. Way too heavy and not a nice balance at all. Mixing a small batch of grout or stirring paint works really well with some heft on the machine.
My colleague has a Festool C15 and that drill has nothing on the Mafell. The C15 is great, but it was very apparent that it lags behind the A18m in performance and run time for larger screws - with same Ah battery.
Still perfectly happy and impressed with the drill. I haven't used my Festool T18 even once since I got me the A18m. The grip is nicer on the T18 but the rest is all Mafell in my book. Slimming down on gear I am phasing out all my Festool 18V gear except for one drill I will keep for use in the workshop and/or home.
There are no true five star 18V drills out there _I think_ but the Mafell is a solid 4.5 - it would be a solid 5 with a slimmer grip. To be worthy of five stars you need solid performance, impeccable ergonomics and one or two stand out features. The stand out features of the Mafell is quick change chucks and the impuls function. Although Metabo has had the impuls for long and the quick change chuck system is becoming more and more universal.
I hold Festool C18/T18 as 4.5 star drills too with the Centrotec system and quick change system with the last .5 deduction for power and or lack of a "true" stand out feature like Impuls mode.
Or we could argue that the best 18V drill that had ALL the features of the best + one stand out feature would be entitled to get a Six Star rating. That would generously push the Mafell and Festool offerings into the five star category with the Mafell possibly receiving a .5 advantage for Impuls mode.
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Post by charley1968 on May 6, 2017 12:54:27 GMT -5
size comparison
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Post by henrun on May 6, 2017 14:28:03 GMT -5
Andi: that A18m looks petite next to the PDC! And the A18m is not a small machine...
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Post by charley1968 on May 7, 2017 3:36:47 GMT -5
Aye! It's a wee tubbier than the PDC.
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Post by holmz on May 7, 2017 4:40:38 GMT -5
I barely feel manly with my Little A10M, but as I see a little drill on the left in your photo that looks familiar... How does it compare? I really like my little A10M generally, but bust out a corded Kress for more brutish work.
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Post by charley1968 on May 7, 2017 15:44:32 GMT -5
Hm..my wife told me it's not the size but the technique that matters. Probably for a reason..but i digress: can't really compare the 2. I use the A10 far more often cause it's sufficient for almost all my needs. One can use it with up to 20mm drill bits but i recon that strains the motor in the long run. The A10 is my household drill and the A18 my workhorse. The PDC gets used when i want all-in-one or small diameter drilling.
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Post by holmz on May 7, 2017 17:06:27 GMT -5
I guess that is the question... If the 18 rates a 10 for power, then what does the PDC rate, and where does the A10 fall below that? How are the ergonomics of the 10 compared to the 18?
Obviously there is no 43-mm flange so the A10 was not intended for the BST. If you only had one would it be the A10 or the A18 ? Or is it too much apples and oranges?
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Post by charley1968 on May 7, 2017 23:46:38 GMT -5
If A18=10, PDC=6-7 and A10=5, power-wise. I'd keep the most expensive drill for its resale value. Or maybe the PDC for its percussion function, if i lived in a concrete building. But i sure wouldn't like to part company with the A10,either..
As for ergonomics: i don't wanna compare a drill half the weight and power to a 18V monster. In my hands the PDC feels slightly more comfortable than the A18, but that's polishing cannonballs..
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Post by huntsgemein on May 8, 2017 0:37:41 GMT -5
I have Metabo's equivalents, for what it's worth. The littl'un is an ergonomic delight. It's just about the closest thing to a truly pocketable drill there is. The most pocketable drill of all time was Metabo's original Powermaxx, which had a beautiful rounded battery end & case. Built in the German factory with the precision of a Swiss watch, it was a treat to behold & handle, but at a mere 4.8v capacity it was terminally compromised on performance. I'd always imagined it would be an ideal tool for high precision work in jewellery, animal & human surgery and the like!
Yes, maybe the grip is a little too broad for young hands, but in terns of lightweight performance it's probably better than most. Metabo's belt clip probably isn't quite as good as the longer Mafell version, which is better designed for clipping to a front "side" pocket when ascending/descending stepladders.
As for power and speed, well... it's a 10.8v drill, so one can't expect miracles. It's a bit too slow for pop riveting sheet metal (the SSD with 1/8" hex bits & 2300 rpm works a treat here), and a tad shy on torque for speedbor augers too. High gear is fast enough for spade bits, or even 1/2" twist bit drilling in wood, but the low torque can cause it to bog down & stall, too. As a small, lightweight compact package, however, it's the perfect companion for the SSD (10.8v Metabo Impact Driver) & ASE mini Sabre saw. I use my setup extensively for architectural & engineering modelling & household chores, where the sheer size & power of bigger tools would be counterproductive. It also works a treat for electrical installation work with delicate fixtures. The torque collar allows a high degree of control & finesse.
I always like to stand my tools up on the battery in use; impossible with the smaller 1.5 & 2.0ah batteries. The 4.0 & 5.2ah versions have a wide, flat platform to stand them on which aids their utility (not to mention runtime) immensely. Even the saw stands on end with the bigger batteries, and the overall package is small & ergonomic enough not to notice any additional weight.
The big Metabo (and I assume its Mafell sister) is another story. Easily the best drill I've owned - by a country mile. It's powerful. More so even than the old Swiss made Bosch GSB VE-2 Li that was its predecessor. That drill could chew through steel girders with holesaws, triple hardwood studs with a 25mm speedbor, stir 10l pots of paint etc. It's still going strong, but weighs a ton, even with lithium batteries (2584g ready to go). That's an awfully large mass to swing off all day! Plus it's big. Really big. the more "compact" Metabo is a good 75mm shorter in length with chuck fitted.
I know the Bosch is a hammer drill & the BS18 LTX BL Q is a drill driver, but I'm not really a fan of hammer drills any more. Not since the compact brushless SDS hammer came of age anyway. Hammer drills tend to scream their way into hard concrete. Slowly. SDS drills take it all in their stride, and lack that awful high pitched tortured note too. The Bosch is still I feel a bit gruntier. I tried one of the newer topline Malaysian Bosch blue VE-2 drills some time ago, and wasn't at all impressed. The Swiss drill, whilst bigger & heavier, could comprehensively outdrill all comers (except maybe the 36v version). Even the brushless Metabo. A "mere" 480 RPM in low gear provides massive torque reserves for heavy tasks.
The Metabo, and I supppose the Mafell A18 too, is much more compact. It has a higher low gear (600 rpm) and similar top gear speed. Ultimately, in drilling performance across the board, there's little to choose between them. Maybe the Metabo has the edge in high gear performance mainly due to its new generation brushless motor. In all other aspects, the Metabo/Mafell twins are superior. Compactness, light weight, ergonomics and of course features. That quick change chuck, angle fixture and the torque multiplier are an absolute game changer. I once tried to bore though some relatively inaccessible girder webs with a keyed chuck Makita angle drill, that vibrated so badly it would lose its grip on the bit every 10 seconds or so. I would've pitched that frustratingly useless piece of junk as far as I could in sheer frustration: it was borrowed, and all that was available, so I just had to bite my lip instead.
The twins just do it so easily, and so much better. Great chuck, great attachments, compact, light, powerful, fast, twin lights, good brake (the Bosch was so savage it would undo the chuck!) & that incredibly useful impulse mode. What's not to like? Some say the ergonomics. To me with rather small hands, I can get a really good secure gip despite the "longer" thickness of the handgrip at the top. Everything falls readily & intuitively to hand: there's a lot of different controls on these drills, but everything adjustable/switchable is (as is the Metabo standard) picked out in red for the user's benefit. To my eyes, there's been a lot of R&D deutschmarks & thought invested in this design. It shows. Frankly I wouldnt've expected any less from (one of) the world's premier drill manufacturers. Having said that, I did have some Metabo cordless tools about 15 odd years ago that were frankly rather underwhelming.
I like the compact 3.1ah Li-HD battery best. This allows for a comfortable lightweight compromise on runtime, and a powerful energy source for full current usage. The balance of the package changes markedly with a battery change. With the 6.2ah twin-row battery it becomes (for me anyway) a bit too big, heavy and simply not as well balanced. The 3.1 (& its coming successors in 3.5 & eventually 4.0AH+ iterations) is for me an optimum compromise.
Where the A10/BS 10.8v twins are all about finesse and compactness, the bigger 18v twins are more jacks of all trades, being equally at home in lightweight, fast or inaccessible going or slugging it out with a 3 or 4" holesaw, a 1/2" bore through structural steel, or a big 32mm speedbor in hardwood.
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