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Post by henrun on Oct 21, 2017 12:25:58 GMT -5
Hey guys! Did some crosscutting today - and it did put my mind to ease a bit. I will follow up with some KSS40 cross cutting for Josef tomorrow. Had lots to do at the workshop so only had time for a brief test: Came straight from a training session and half shaved - wasn't planning on having myself visible in the clip... Did not have much time to fiddle around with the phone and had to shoot in vertical mode - normally I would film horizontally - but that's how it went down today... Did two takes and this was the least unbearable. Crosscutting _dry_ pinewood, 50x200mm, no problem. Tried feeding it a bit faster on a few cuts which caused the saw to shut off at times. It was possible to cut at a pretty fast rate of cut/speed so I would not say it is slow going. I did some 20 cuts on each battery, switching back and forth - and still four bars. When the saw stops there is no shudder or kick back - it just stops, as can be seen in the video when I up the tempo a bit on the cross cut. It feels very safe to operate. I will maintain that the saw is possibly underpowered for certain tasks which are _within_ the operating limits. However I do not consider ripping 34mm pressure treated and cold wood "normal", definitely not with the 32 tooth universal blade. I would think the 24 tooth blade would "suffice" for the pinewood and I will rip a piece of the same plank tomorrow and see if I bog down the saw - I actually think it will do well enough with a slow enough feed rate. I was going to include this in a follow up clip but the rails in the shop have been cut with the MT55cc and I am not sure the KSS50 will match the rubber lip and I don't want to replace the rubber lip. Didn't think of bringing my "ski bag"! The disappointment with the saw not being able to mitre pressure treated pinewood 34x145mm still stands. It was a bit underwhelming. I don't plan on doing mitre cuts with a lesser tooth blade than the 24 tooth blade - if so I might as well use the 18V Metabo mitre saw I have. This was a real life experience with the KSS50 18M on a job site with limited access to power outlets. It does leave me with a question mark for the performance of the KSS50 on similar projects where there is no ac outlet. If I get nine to ten meters in poor conditions per charge I wonder how much I get under half poor conditions? Can't bring four-five batteries for the KSS50 alone. I look forward to Calidecks progress with the same saw and I will definitely update with future findings, hopefully good ones. I am ordering the rip cut blade (don't remember tooth count, but I think it will help out for sure). Fifth edit: I did work the KSS40 a lot on the same deck build - since the KSS 50 was delayed in shipping - and I ripped the same decking and lots of mitre cuts with the KSS40 and it handled it so well I was really looking forward to seeing what the KSS50 would do. If anything, I am even more impressed with the KSS40, running non LiHD and LiHD batteries. I did have a ripping blade for the KSS40 and switched blades when needed. My colleague was very impressed with the KSS 40. He did not see my struggles with the KSS 50 on the last day on the project as he was busy around the corner... ...thankfully.
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Post by henrun on Oct 21, 2017 12:54:49 GMT -5
Arvid: Festools twin 18V gets mixed reviews. Another colleague has been struggling with his unit, the TS55 18V dual battery unit, it drains batteries really fast - one more than the other. I have used his machine on a job with him and was actually not impressed at all. And we are talking cutting down measly 19mm MDF...
We actually spoke to the German Festool rep about this and he said he thought one of the batteries was faulty. They cut some 50 meters of 38/40mm particleboard in one go with the machine and with some juice to spare he said. I remember seing this on a Demo clip too.
He did Demo the HKC55 for us (and made some false claims about Mafell rail compatibility) and he personally preferred the HKC 55 - as do I. It was a better design and one battery is enough to keep it going. On the mitre cuts the edges were more frayed than with the Mafell but I think the Festool blade was only 18 teeth (?).
I am impressed by the plunge preset on the HKC55 - it is a great feature. Wish Mafell had it too!
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Post by henrun on Oct 21, 2017 13:04:51 GMT -5
I am having a play day at the workshop today so I will cut me some fat scraps with the KSS50 - mostly fir, pine and/or spruce. All dry wood. I could perhaps bring the KSS40 too but I know how it performs so more interested in working out the KSS50. But the task of the day is evaluating the Makita 18V router on a small project. Also I haven't had more than two small projects for my DD40 (bought used) so I will have to learn how to work it like the Domino - freebasing it. v. interested in how it goes with the Makita 18V router. I’ve been looking at them as a compliment to my LO65 Almost did not happen! When I was going to fit a router bit it turned out they only supplied me with the 6/6.35mm router collet... ...and I only have 8mm shank bits. I did scrounge one up from my colleagues Makita - the corded one - so I did a little edge routing with the 18V unit - nothing straining though, just edge chamfering in oak. It was very smooth - actually feels better in use than the corded one. Balance is good and I did fit the off set base which made it even better. Also chamfered some Staron with it and so far it seems great! Quiet, soft start, LED, well balanced and lots of base options. Will use it more tomorrow and will try the plunge base too. It seems pretty much on par with the corded for power and feels as good as the corded Virutex (750W) machine it replaces for me. I do have the Festool OFK500 edge router which is my go to edge router but I think I will have plenty of use for the Makita both as a general purpose router and as an edge router. Maybe I should make another thread on the Makita - but at least I can say I am very happy with the purchase.
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Post by jozsefkozma on Oct 21, 2017 15:15:28 GMT -5
Hey guys! Did some crosscutting today - and it did put my mind to ease a bit. I will follow up with some KSS40 cross cutting for Josef tomorrow. Had lots to do at the workshop so only had time for a brief test: Came straight from a training session and half shaved - wasn't planning on having myself visible in the clip... Did not have much time to fiddle around with the phone and had to shoot in vertical mode - normally I would film horizontally - but that's how it went down today... Did two takes and this was the least unbearable. Crosscutting _dry_ pinewood, 50x200mm, no problem. Tried feeding it a bit faster on a few cuts which caused the saw to shut off at times. It was possible to cut at a pretty fast rate of cut/speed so I would not say it is slow going. I did some 20 cuts on each battery, switching back and forth - and still four bars. When the saw stops there is no shudder or kick back - it just stops, as can be seen in the video when I up the tempo a bit on the cross cut. It feels very safe to operate. I will maintain that the saw is possibly underpowered for certain tasks which are _within_ the operating limits. However I do not consider ripping 34mm pressure treated and cold wood "normal", definitely not with the 32 tooth universal blade. I would think the 24 tooth blade would "suffice" for the pinewood and I will rip a piece of the same plank tomorrow and see if I bog down the saw - I actually think it will do well enough with a slow enough feed rate. I was going to include this in a follow up clip but the rails in the shop have been cut with the MT55cc and I am not sure the KSS50 will match the rubber lip and I don't want to replace the rubber lip. Didn't think of bringing my "ski bag"! The disappointment with the saw not being able to mitre pressure treated pinewood 34x145mm still stands. It was a but underwhelming. I don't plan on doing mitre cuts with a lesser tooth blade than the 24 tooth blade - if so I might as well use the 18V Metabo mitre saw I have. This was a real life experience with the KSS50 18M on a job site with limited access to power outlets. It does leave me with a question mark for the performance of the KSS50 on similar projects where there is no ac outlet. If I get nine to ten meters in poor conditions per charge I wonder how much I get under half poor conditions? Can't bring four-five batteries for the KSS50 alone. I look forward to Calidecks progress with the same saw and I will definitely update with future findings, hopefully good ones. I am ordering the rip cut blade (don't remember tooth count, but I think it will help out for sure). Fifth edit: I did work the KSS40 a lot on the same deck build - since the KSS 50 was delayed in shipping - and I ripped the same decking and lots of mitre cuts with the KSS40 and it handled it so well I was really looking forward to seeing what the KSS50 would do. If anything, I am even more impressed with the KSS40, running non LiHD and LiHD batteries. I did have a ripping blade for the KSS40 and switched blades when needed. My colleague was very impressed with the KSS 40. He did not see my struggles with the KSS 50 on the last day on the project as he was busy around the corner... ...thankfully.
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Post by chippiegary on Oct 21, 2017 15:15:54 GMT -5
Firstly I think hats off to henrun I think he’s doing a great job of reviewing something that seems to be causeing quite a stir . My previous comments of saying I don’t think the saw is underpowered still stand I’ve not really worked it that hard and I doubt I ever will . I went to the show to buy a kss60 cordless and that was pretty nailed on for me however on trying both machines back to back , making test cuts etc I felt the kss 50 was every bit as powerful as the kss 60 36 v . Kss 50 definitely ran faster and smoother and one of the questions I asked the mafell guys was the power question in there opinion “ one of them actually had a hand in developing it” their answer was it was so negligible you would not notice . Now they were just there from mafell it didn’t make any difference to them what you bought “kss60 by the way was slightly more expensive “ but what struck me more than anything was that the 60 just seemed outdated a bit compared to the 50 . I am very fortunate in the fact although I make my living using these amazing tools I’m in the position where I can and do pick and choose my work “to a certain degree “ and tend to keep mafell tools for stuff which is always well within their capabilities . I own a lot of really amazing tools and Have been known at times to use a tool which is not necessarily absolutely the most efficient for the job but to use something because I’ve not used it for a while and I fancy using it again “ kss 300 comes to mind over the kss 40 “ actually used both recently together that was really cool. kss 300 still my fav tool a lot of that down to nostalgia though “she was my first !!
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Post by henrun on Oct 21, 2017 15:39:39 GMT -5
Gary: no worries at all! Would not want to give any false or unsubstantiated impressions or a one sided story to the equipment. Had I been younger I might have simply discarded the KSS50 as "useless" and moved along. I just try to tell it as it is - in my view.
I briefly had the KSS60 - it was simply too large to swing around on a daily basis - at least for me. I do remember it breezing through each and every cut though.
With that in mind the initial disappointment with the KSS50 hit a bit harder - but also in hindsight I am well aware that I was pushing the saw to its limits on that occasion.
I can honestly say I am not disappointed with the KSS50 as a whole, it was just a relief to cut some dry wood and feel that the saw actually is a capable saw. I am sure it will continue to impress - I just know the limitations a bit better now.
Personally I prefer the KSS40 over the KSS300 but the 300 was what won me over to Mafell. The blade brake is a winning feature on the KSS40, I didn't like the spin down time on the 300.
I might also prefer the KSS40 over the 50 up to the full depth of cut of the 40. Such a nimble, yet powerful machine! It is also quite comfortable off the rails and usually track saws are clumsy off rails.
Will have a full day at the workshop tomorrow and will pitch the two against each other some more - much for my own sake - I have the KSS 40 mainly as an interior saw and I want to see at what point the KSS 50 has a distinct advantage over the KSS 40.
In two weeks time I am starting a project that will probably see the KSS 50 as the go-to saw for 90% of all cuts; studs, podiums, sheet goods and panels. Normally I would bring the KSS40 and a mitre saw but when I had the KSS 60 I could leave the mitre saw at the shop at times.
For anyone considering either the KSS40 or 50 it is really a hard choice. I wasn't planning on having both really and I was initially hoping I could replace the 40 with the 50 but the 40 has the Flexirail and is a featherweight so it's a keeper though I suspect the 50 will shift the percentage of use slightly. After I got the 40 I only used the MT55cc twice during that year... ...and one time it could have been done on the 40.
But, the 40 doesn't do 2X ... ...so no matter how I flip it in my head there is still room for both.
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Post by skinee on Oct 21, 2017 16:45:24 GMT -5
I'd have to say that based on Heinrik's most recent video that I am disappointed in the saw,for the saw to stall in bone dry 50mm pine at normal feed speed is unacceptable,it definitely seems underpowered unfortunately. perhaps that was one of the reasons why it was delayed so long,it raises suspicions. i think we have been spoiled a little with the great performance of the kss 40 and expected similar or greater performance from the 50,the blade of the 50 spins at 4,450 rpm compared to the 40's speed of 6,700 rpm and is a lot more massive, perhaps the motor on the 50 just does not have enough 'oomph' proportionately to compensate for its greater mass thereby reducing performance,i'm only speculating, I have no expert knowledge,the last thing mafell needs is to have its reputation lowered by launching an underpowered saw(like others we all know about!),between the dustbag problem and now this I am less than impressed.
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Post by jozsefkozma on Oct 21, 2017 21:10:06 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info , it makes me probably go with the kss 40 to replace my kss 300 I just have to work it out to get it in to US with the new type of batteries the weight , size and transportability is big advantage of the Kss 40 On an other note I also use an HKC and TSC The TSC has the same power as the corded and gets me thrue a day without changing batteries I would say on some days it is over 50 meters of cutting 3/4 inch birch ply
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Post by calidecks on Oct 21, 2017 23:28:52 GMT -5
Well I have the 40, 50, and 60. And of course the mt55cc. I can say with absolute certainty, that little 40 is tops.
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Post by henrun on Oct 22, 2017 2:18:21 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info , it makes me probably go with the kss 40 to replace my kss 300 I just have to work it out to get it in to US with the new type of batteries the weight , size and transportability is big advantage of the Kss 40 On an other note I also use an HKC and TSC The TSC has the same power as the corded and gets me thrue a day without changing batteries I would say on some days it is over 50 meters of cutting 3/4 inch birch ply If you were happy with the KSS300 you will be thrilled with the KSS40. It is equally strong, has a blade brake and a functional kick back stop. I was going to keep my KSS300 at first - but after the first project with the KSS40 I felt like there was really no need. Except for being cordless the blade brake sealed the deal and everything else was just gravy on top. The saw should be shipping with them new batteries - unless the dealer has a few units with the older batt's in stock. Or, if Mafell wishes to clear stock. They could just hand out an extra battery or keep pushing them with the drills. The KSS40 is such a unique platform that I think it would merit a place regardless of what other saws one might have. Between "all the others" it is a brawl about minor differences and rail compatibility.
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Post by henrun on Oct 22, 2017 2:23:18 GMT -5
I'd have to say that based on Heinrik's most recent video that I am disappointed in the saw,for the saw to stall in bone dry 50mm pine at normal feed speed is unacceptable,it definitely seems underpowered unfortunately. perhaps that was one of the reasons why it was delayed so long,it raises suspicions. i think we have been spoiled a little with the great performance of the kss 40 and expected similar or greater performance from the 50,the blade of the 50 spins at 4,450 rpm compared to the 40's speed of 6,700 rpm and is a lot more massive, perhaps the motor on the 50 just does not have enough 'oomph' proportionately to compensate for its greater mass thereby reducing performance,i'm only speculating, I have no expert knowledge,the last thing mafell needs is to have its reputation lowered by launching an underpowered saw(like others we all know about!),between the dustbag problem and now this I am less than impressed. On the first clip the machine stalled _more_ on the same piece of wood. I was thinking perhaps I was feeding too fast so I slowed things down for the second clip. One could perhaps argue that near the max capacity one should slow down a bit. I think your assessment of blade speed and weight (and thickness) does have a point. I will plane down the same piece to 40mm and run the KSS40 on it as a comparison. The KSS40 will be at max depth whereas the KSS50 did have a few mm's to spare.
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Post by chippiegary on Oct 22, 2017 3:18:10 GMT -5
That's interesting henrun because when watching the clip I thought perhaps you were pushing it quickly " don't want to offend " I tend to push cordless a lot slower my college has even mentioned it telling me to hurry up when we are working , but he's a miserable old bugger ! He has got both the fessie hk 55 "corded " he sent cordless back felt it was underpowered and the tsc twin battery which he likes but thinks it's underpowered also again he doesn't push it hard . I think point is people's views really can be different I actually prefer as henrun as said a lot of the features on the hk over the kss -"plunge , snugging up on the rail , better dust bag etc I just can't ever go back to those bloody rails and splinter strips , I even toyed with the idea of trying to put groove in the base plate to allow Bosch and mafell rails . As mentioned in earlier post my grunt track saw is a corded Bosch gks 85 g very powerful but lacking in finesse but it's used for what I want it for power on a rail although I think it will eventually be replaced by a corded kss60 " would be interested in your views henrun on this I would have probably bought yours " just to complete the set if nothing else . Kss 40 gets a lot of people's votes and I see why next week will be my fav saw again , "so many saws not enough time "!! Cordless makita router and metabo 18v scms also on my list " great minds think alike henrun .
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Post by arvid on Oct 22, 2017 9:14:22 GMT -5
Does the kss 50 18v come with a thinner blade like the cordless kss60 and kss 400 36v?
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Post by jozsefkozma on Oct 22, 2017 20:53:35 GMT -5
That is exactly what I was thinking Henrun about the KSS 40 ‘s unique ability The HKC is a good saw if stays on the the rails and as mentioned the splinterguard is agraveting The TLC works well on sheet goods and don’t remember ever to raplace batteries when I started with fresh In the morning but again the track splinter guard
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Post by henrun on Oct 23, 2017 1:58:26 GMT -5
Chippiegary: of course I am not offended. I go by feedback from the machine when I crosscut and usually the feeding rate in normal use is quite fast and slowing things down doesn't do any good. On this occasion I did feel the "tremors" so slowed things down. But, it was a good to know the operational limits too. On the KSS60cc the machine would cut as fast as I could push it in Pinewood - cutting 45mm studs. Some clips, with some caveats. KSS40 off the Rails in same piece of wood as before, cross cut with the 12T blade, at 40mm it is close to the max capacity cut off rails: Conclusion: no problems if going easy. Also the 12T blade does not fray the edges much when crosscutting. KSS40 on Crosscut Rail 38x194mm with the 24T blade. Feeding rate according to "feedback" from machine. No problems really. Sped up a notch on first cut and machine started telling me to slow down again. Second cut more uniform speed of cut.
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