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Post by holmz on Oct 20, 2017 3:41:17 GMT -5
Look fellas, I'm no apologist for any brand here,... ... That is not a word normally used, but it seems ideal given fervour that surrounds the topics. And I like seeing it used too.
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Post by rizzoa13 on Oct 20, 2017 5:08:08 GMT -5
I’m really surprised by your cutting distances on a battery charge. If there’s one thing about the Metabo/mafell cordless line that truly impressed me it’s the batteries. I’ve beat the shit out of them and still had a lot of charge left afterwards.
34mm is almost 2x material here in the states right? The only thing I know that’s going to cut that well is a mains saw with a decently fresh blade. Even more important is a blade designed for cutting that wet garbage (yea anything will cut it but a good PT blade goes like butter).
Pressure treated framing lumber, especially stair stringers, is pretty much the only thing I get the mains saw out for anymore.
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Post by henrun on Oct 20, 2017 9:03:18 GMT -5
I’m really surprised by your cutting distances on a battery charge. If there’s one thing about the Metabo/mafell cordless line that truly impressed me it’s the batteries. I’ve beat the shit out of them and still had a lot of charge left afterwards. 34mm is almost 2x material here in the states right? The only thing I know that’s going to cut that well is a mains saw with a decently fresh blade. Even more important is a blade designed for cutting that wet garbage (yea anything will cut it but a good PT blade goes like butter). Pressure treated framing lumber, especially stair stringers, is pretty much the only thing I get the mains saw out for anymore. 34mm is roughly 1.34 inches. This dimension is within the specs of the KSS40 and should not have posed any problems for the KSS50. When I had the KSS60 it breezed through studs (2x4's). A 2X over here is 45mm give or take a mm. This will require the KSS50 or 60/85. 2 inches is about 50mm/5cm. I am also suprised by the lack of endurance. I know for a fact at least one battery was freshly and fully charged, the other one was charged three days prior and left on the machine (for the "drain test"). I have some 2x3 in the basement (pine) and I am thinking of ripping me some pine with a fresh charge. The wood is dry. Just got to feed the critters and make my way down there before the missus catches me. As far as she is concerned it is "tools down" when I get home.
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Post by henrun on Oct 20, 2017 9:18:21 GMT -5
Look fellas, I'm no apologist for any brand here,... ... That is not a word normally used, but it seems ideal given fervour that surrounds the topics. And I like seeing it used too. Yes, I don't think I have ever been brand biased to the point of not seeing reality. My Festool bashing began early, about fifteen years ago... ...much to the chagrin of my friendly Festool dealer. I have had most Festool hand tools over the years and only recently started to phase out some in favor of other brands. I remember back when Festool drills had no LED light. I thought it a bit "behind the curve" but the dealer said "Festool wants to do _better_ than just adding a LED". The we got that silly clip on light that sucked and was not fully compatible. And I asked him "is that it!!?". He had nothing to say. And then Festool got the (by then) industry standard LED light... ...many years after the others... And the "battery belt clips"... (vein starts popping) ... But still, Festool has a few awesome machines and I love using them. Mafell and Metabo adds a ruggedness that I have lacked from Festool but there is no single brand that covers enough for a single battery platform. Not even two platforms. Maybe three. Quite possibly four. I am down to three, I was hoping two. But I shop for quality and reliability - not by brand. I seldom "ditch" brands but I ditched Bosch 18V a few years back, some great machines mixed with some quite poor ergonomics and duds so I gave it up as one out two main battery platforms. Mafell/Metabo and Festool are my go-to brands, now I have the odd Makita 18V. I don't bash Makita as much as bash the other two/three as I don't expect as much from them, strange as it may sound - or look in writing. I bash Mafell because I care. There you have it - that's what I will print on my work t-shirt.
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Post by chippiegary on Oct 20, 2017 11:00:44 GMT -5
I always regard mafell like the 1980’s vw golf gti ads “often copied never bettered “ I used to think the same of festool at recent show I didn’t even look at the fessie stand but stopped at Bosch makita and DeWalt . Currently there is a machine from pretty much every major company which I would buy ,I’m 53 now and tools are quite frankly brilliant to what they used to be like “ I was somebody as a young Chippie with my yankee screwdriver “ which I still use “ then I really arrived with my first battery drill driver “ Bosch 9.6 v with stick battery I think ? Tools have come a very long way .
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Post by arvid on Oct 20, 2017 11:56:45 GMT -5
i ay hold off getting the cordless version of the kss50 after reading those posts above. What i don't understand is they have a 36v in a smaller saw the kss400 cordless. why drop down to an 18 volt battery for the kss 50 which is a bigger saw meant for cutting larger material. Even the festool track saw has the option to run 2 18 volt batteries. The smaller Saw is an older generation Bosch derived tool. If it's - as I assume it is - similar to my own older 36v Bosch cordless saw, then it employs long-superseded technology. Later generation 18v EC tools appear to be the current "gold standard" in cordless technology. The fact that Festo/ol currently finds it necessary to employ twin 18v batteries in its equivalent "copycat" saw is indicative to me of its design deficiencies, & not any sign (however remote) of any sort if inherent, innate superiority. I'm personally singularly unimpressed with the company's cordless offerings, which tend to employ second or even third-tier outmoded technology. Twin battery technology these days tends to be employed in seriously powerful large capacity mains replacement tools the like of Metabo's 230mm grinder & 250mm table saw, or Makita's cordless lawn mowers, brushcutters & chainsaws. Standard power tools, with smaller capacities such as SCMS, circular saws, stirrers & even SDS+ drills don't necessarily require 36v any more provided they employ EC motor & high capacity & current battery technology, such as the new generation of Mafell cordless saws. well it seems like the kss 50 could use the 36v battery from what people are saying. it seems to be under powered by the 18v.
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Post by chippiegary on Oct 20, 2017 12:21:16 GMT -5
I don’t think it’s underpowered at all so far so good for me “now right blade is in machine ! Really nicely balanced
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Post by henrun on Oct 20, 2017 14:58:24 GMT -5
I am not too lazy to change to the right blade, I just had the 24T and the 32T. What struck me was how much the machine struggled in _crosscuts_ on the 34x145mm. I would not want to use a lesser tooth blade than the 24 tooth blade and considering I had to do each cut two or three times (!) because the machine bogged down (!) I would say it is not up to the task on that specific type of wood and condition (pressure treated) which is a common type of wood and the most common cut. It was also well within the specs and comfort range of the machine. I am hoping it was just an extraordinary dense/wet/cold piece of wood I ran into, I can't really believe it myself. And I was there - haha! Balance is great on the machine. If I could have just one machine I'd be hard pressed to choose between the KSS40 and the KSS50. I am leaning a little, but not whole-heartedly towards perhaps the MT55cc 18V and the KSS40 as the ideal pairing. That came as a thought after the pretty poor plunging I experienced. BUT - yet again, I must have gotten a few of the worst possible deck planks of the whole lot to plunge and rip. If I was doing a lot of deck building with that type of wood and fresh off the pressure treatment facility (which it usually is two/three times during the building season) the performance would p*ss me off and have me get some other tool after two days. I am not giving up on the saw though. Got caught redhanded in the basement going through studs when the missus and the puppy showed up. Of course I was just "cleaning out" the basement - which is always approved. No cutting though but studs are out in the open.
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 20, 2017 17:30:06 GMT -5
To apply so much power (2400w +) to such a small saw would fundamentally change its characteristics. The tool by necessity would become significantly larger, bulkier & heavier, as chassis, motor and superstructure would necessarily become much bigger & beefier. Rather than having a relatively small, lightweight, ergonomic construction saw, you'd end up with a much larger, heavier, more powerful & (crucially) much less easily handled tool. Even mains powered versions of this size of saw made by any manufacturer utilise smaller motors of about 1200w input.
Surely this sort of twin battery size, mass & power characteristics would be better suited to a significantly bigger cordless iteration of the current KSS 80 series of saw, fitted with a 240 mm blade and with its much larger capacities. Where the amazing 36v EC Metabo motor is currently employed: the monster WPB 36 230 LTX Bl grinder & TS 36-18 LTX BL 254 table Saw are much larger tools that require & (more importantly) can cope with such power.
The 18v iteration of this EC motor is eminently capable of powering medium sized but powerful tools. Without significant power, productivity or weight penalties. A case in point is the WB 18 LTX BL 180 grinder, a mains replacement tool size that typically employs a 1900-2400w motor when mains powered. To what possible advantage could the additional weight, bulk & ergonomic compromise of twin batteries be applied to this tool? Or for that matter to the smaller Mafell KSS saws? Maybe at some time in the future we may indeed see big, super powerful 240mm cordless Mafell saws, but to apply so much power & weight to their smaller range would surely be a significantly regressive development.
Presumably the whole raison d'etre of their smaller range of cordless machines is in their ergonomic utility. The application of the latest EC technology to these tools allows a smaller, lighter, more useful tool that can be easily & safely used in a multitude of construction tasks.
That it isn't a "perfect" plunge Saw is a given: the MT55 range (both "CC" & "BL" versions) are the masters of plunge & rip. The KSS range is a much more generalised, all round construction saw that is also fitted with Mafell's fantastic crosscutting rail to allow quick, easy & accurate mitering. It will also of course rip & plunge too, but perhaps not as easily or effectively as a dedicated plunge saw (MT range) will. Whether mains or battery powered, the different models' utility in different roles should be similar.
Any new range or family of tools, placed as Mafell has at the "cutting edge" of current technology can still be improved. Battery storage capacity & power delivery characteristics is indeed a significant limiting factor. Li-HD cells (or "Core" in Bosch-speak) will allow these new EC tools to give of their best. To use previous generation batteries is to compromise performance, as can be seen in at least one of the above reviews.
In fact, it's verging on the sacrilegious! Would you choose to power your Ducati Superleggera or Bugatti Veyron with low octane gasoline? To use batteries of smaller capacity will likewise limit runtimes too (again, see above). Given that Sanyo Panasonic & their Metabo & Bosch partners have forecast (twin row battery) cell storage capacities going from the current "best" of 7.0 AH to 9.0 AH by 2019 will obviously significantly increase tool runtimes accordingly.
The fact that at least one current user has no complaints whatsoever on his own tool's available power indicates to me that Mafell are indeed on the right track in their development of these tools: that the balance of size, weight & available power is just about right.
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Post by chippiegary on Oct 20, 2017 18:46:16 GMT -5
Very well put my friend , a colleague of mine today who has known me for well over forty years was laughing his head off at me oohing and ahhing while I was using my new saw he reckon he’s not seen me so excited since I first saw kylie monogue !!
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 20, 2017 18:55:54 GMT -5
Hmm. Yes. Kylie. The "singing budgie". That cute, pert derrière in those fabulous, famous gold hotpants...
Now if only the company would get their shit together & move that stupid sarcophagus to the options list, I'd be in like Errol Flynn!
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Post by henrun on Oct 21, 2017 4:14:59 GMT -5
huntsgemein wrote:
"That it isn't a "perfect" plunge Saw is a given: the MT55 range (both "CC" & "BL" versions) are the masters of plunge & rip. The KSS range is a much more generalised, all round construction saw that is also fitted with Mafell's fantastic crosscutting rail to allow quick, easy & accurate mitering. It will also of course rip & plunge too, but perhaps not as easily or effectively as a dedicated plunge saw (MT range) will. Whether mains or battery powered, the different models' utility in different roles should be similar."
Yes, I agree, Festool did solve it to some extent with a very clever plunge preset and lock on the HKC 55. So it can be done better.
"To use previous generation batteries is to compromise performance, as can be seen in at least one of the above reviews."
Yes, of course. But, the KSS40 was sold with the previous generation batteries and is a fairly new saw so its merits should be judged with both new and "old" batteries. As for the KSS50 I ran it initially with the LiHD but since even that battery ran flat in nine meters of cross cutting a deck, equal to mitre cutting, I am not impressed with the performance on that given day. To be honest it is sub par performance in a real world situation that I am sure will repeat itself.
"The fact that at least one current user has no complaints whatsoever on his own tool's available power indicates to me that Mafell are indeed on the right track in their development of these tools: that the balance of size, weight & available power is just about right."
I have to disagree with that statement my eloquent friend. One users satisfaction with any given product says nothing much about the tool really - other than the fact that _one_ person is satisfied with it. It could still be crap for the general public or any or even every other user.
It simply all depends on that users preference. Some are happy with an old 7.2V NiCad drill for every day use. I am not.
Ahh, Kylie Minogue... ...now "I can't get her out of my head"...
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Post by henrun on Oct 21, 2017 4:20:11 GMT -5
I am having a play day at the workshop today so I will cut me some fat scraps with the KSS50 - mostly fir, pine and/or spruce. All dry wood. I could perhaps bring the KSS40 too but I know how it performs so more interested in working out the KSS50. But the task of the day is evaluating the Makita 18V router on a small project. Also I haven't had more than two small projects for my DD40 (bought used) so I will have to learn how to work it like the Domino - freebasing it.
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Post by bicycleclip on Oct 21, 2017 7:29:06 GMT -5
I am having a play day at the workshop today so I will cut me some fat scraps with the KSS50 - mostly fir, pine and/or spruce. All dry wood. I could perhaps bring the KSS40 too but I know how it performs so more interested in working out the KSS50. But the task of the day is evaluating the Makita 18V router on a small project. Also I haven't had more than two small projects for my DD40 (bought used) so I will have to learn how to work it like the Domino - freebasing it. v. interested in how it goes with the Makita 18V router. I’ve been looking at them as a compliment to my LO65
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Post by arvid on Oct 21, 2017 9:19:41 GMT -5
To apply so much power (2400w +) to such a small saw would fundamentally change its characteristics. The tool by necessity would become significantly larger, bulkier & heavier, as chassis, motor and superstructure would necessarily become much bigger & beefier. Rather than having a relatively small, lightweight, ergonomic construction saw, you'd end up with a much larger, heavier, more powerful & (crucially) much less easily handled tool. Even mains powered versions of this size of saw made by any manufacturer utilise smaller motors of about 1200w input. Surely this sort of twin battery size, mass & power characteristics would be better suited to a significantly bigger cordless iteration of the current KSS 80 series of saw, fitted with a 240 mm blade and with its much larger capacities. Where the amazing 36v EC Metabo motor is currently employed: the monster WPB 36 230 LTX Bl grinder & TS 36-18 LTX BL 254 table Saw are much larger tools that require & (more importantly) can cope with such power. The 18v iteration of this EC motor is eminently capable of powering medium sized but powerful tools. Without significant power, productivity or weight penalties. A case in point is the WB 18 LTX BL 180 grinder, a mains replacement tool size that typically employs a 1900-2400w motor when mains powered. To what possible advantage could the additional weight, bulk & ergonomic compromise of twin batteries be applied to this tool? Or for that matter to the smaller Mafell KSS saws? Maybe at some time in the future we may indeed see big, super powerful 240mm cordless Mafell saws, but to apply so much power & weight to their smaller range would surely be a significantly regressive development. Presumably the whole raison d'etre of their smaller range of cordless machines is in their ergonomic utility. The application of the latest EC technology to these tools allows a smaller, lighter, more useful tool that can be easily & safely used in a multitude of construction tasks. That it isn't a "perfect" plunge Saw is a given: the MT55 range (both "CC" & "BL" versions) are the masters of plunge & rip. The KSS range is a much more generalised, all round construction saw that is also fitted with Mafell's fantastic crosscutting rail to allow quick, easy & accurate mitering. It will also of course rip & plunge too, but perhaps not as easily or effectively as a dedicated plunge saw (MT range) will. Whether mains or battery powered, the different models' utility in different roles should be similar. Any new range or family of tools, placed as Mafell has at the "cutting edge" of current technology can still be improved. Battery storage capacity & power delivery characteristics is indeed a significant limiting factor. Li-HD cells (or "Core" in Bosch-speak) will allow these new EC tools to give of their best. To use previous generation batteries is to compromise performance, as can be seen in at least one of the above reviews. In fact, it's verging on the sacrilegious! Would you choose to power your Ducati Superleggera or Bugatti Veyron with low octane gasoline? To use batteries of smaller capacity will likewise limit runtimes too (again, see above). Given that Sanyo Panasonic & their Metabo & Bosch partners have forecast (twin row battery) cell storage capacities going from the current "best" of 7.0 AH to 9.0 AH by 2019 will obviously significantly increase tool runtimes accordingly. The fact that at least one current user has no complaints whatsoever on his own tool's available power indicates to me that Mafell are indeed on the right track in their development of these tools: that the balance of size, weight & available power is just about right. [ All that said does not change the fact that the kss50 is under powered at 18v from runs review. One good review and one bad so far. What run described he was trying to accomplish with the saw is what I’d be using it for. So if he says it’s a fail then I’ll take his word for it over one good review. If it can’t cut 10 meters it’s useless. I’ll wait to see what Cali decks review is. But when dewalt is going to 60 volts and Festool twin 18 volts. And Mafell kss 400 and kss 60 at 36 volts it makes no sense what so ever that they went with 18 volts in the kss50. Its a step backwards in my opinion.
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