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Post by kraftt on Feb 18, 2017 23:56:11 GMT -5
Hi guys - great to find a Mafell forum!
My question is about the different motor options Mafell makes for the MT55cc. (sorry if this has already been addressed before but I need the low down before I leave for the states).
Though many sales sites still list the North American 120v 60Hz as 1400watt - it's my understanding that it's actually 1200watt.
So before I buy, I wanted to know if Mafell makes only two universal motors = 240v 50Hz & 110v 50Hz. Or if they also make a third version - a 120v 60Hz.
From what I've been able to dig up the 110v 50hz version is what is sent to North America, only with the appropriate cord attached. The sites over here just repost the euro specs/boiler plate since their livelihood is sales and those pesky details confuse customers and/or they just list it as 120v 60hz since the universal motors are also capable of working off it.
I know that the 110v 50Hz will run just fine, albeit a bit faster, on 120v 60Hz. So is that what everyone has in North America?
Have any of you brought your 110v 50Hz Mafell tools from U.K. over here? Any long term issues?
Thanks!
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Post by kraftt on Feb 19, 2017 5:28:14 GMT -5
ok, I think I've (possibly) verified what I was after - Thanks GhostFist (admin) for posting a link to parts on this forum, very useful. I compared random 110v GB with 120v US models, most match up with exception of legacy. Here's an edited image of 2 partial current parts lists side by side: imgur.com/a/HQDG2Not shown in image, the only difference I see is the 'mains cable' #0878 30 is USA 120v (NEMA 5-15/2P) and #0878 03 is U.K. 110v.
Parts link - www.mafell.de/en/service/service-catalogue.html(And thank you too Kraftt! No, no,... Thank YOU!) |
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Post by reflector on Feb 19, 2017 18:10:55 GMT -5
From my understanding the only technical difference with the British transformers versus American 120V is both wires are hot on the British 220V->110V transformers. One wire is +55V and the other is 55V. There's your 110V. The motor sees 110V and it remains happy. Just like how we can get 240V in the US with two 120V from split phase.
I know people have successfully imported the Bosch GKT55 (A close relative/practically a brother to the Mafell MT55cc, with some features removed) from the UK in its 110V version and had it successfully run in the US. An option I am still contemplating with the KSS60 from the UK and perhaps a Bosch router that is NAINA.
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Post by kraftt on Feb 19, 2017 20:23:44 GMT -5
Yes Reflector, good point. There's even a section in the American NEC for 'balanced power'. Mostly used in studio recording applications where you use 60v + 60v instead of relying on a 'grounded conductor' aka 'neutral' (grounded conductor vs 'ground' wire). You're required to protect anything plugged into these circuits with a GFCI (standard GFCI's work fine with the 60/60) and identify circuits with label at outlets. Not allowed for lighting though, just equip. Usually you feed a x-former with 220~240 and it steps it down for the 60/60. The end result is a 'balanced' line i.e. less spikes, noise etc. Similar to old tube amp push/pull benefit. Apple computer even installed these (Equitech) in their testing facility back in the day for iPods (remember those). Completely unnecessary in 240 euro though. I'm just not clear on how Mafell is addressing the increased speed you pick up when using a 110v 50Hz on 120v 60hz (?). Something's going on since the MT55cc is then only rated at 1200watt. Mafell also uses a thinner kerf to their blades, I believe, and that puts less demand on a motor. Don't know how much more you lose using a thicker Festool blade, Freud etc. - I guess you just stick with Mafell. Anyone know the kerf thickness of the Bosch blades? *(edit- 1.8mm Bosch / 1.8mm Mafell, though plate thickness may be thinner on the Mafell blades by .1mm). As far as buying from the U.K. the exchange rate is rather good at present compared to past years. About 1.25 as of writing this. Not a bad time at all to buy especially with Obamas 'De Minimis' increase to $800 (US) www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-media-release/de-minimis-value-increases-800 making anything up to that number duty / tax free. I looked online and there are stores that will ship a kit to US for only 45£ insured (!) |
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Post by holmz on Feb 20, 2017 8:19:20 GMT -5
Double insulated tools do not understand (or know) whether the power is single ended (hot and nuetral) or have two hot wires out of phase.
It has no meaning from the perspective of the motor.
If the neutral was tied to bound and the chassis was grounded, then the operator would quickly get shocked, which a double insulated tool prevents.
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Post by kraftt on Feb 20, 2017 9:31:42 GMT -5
which makes sense.
In case there's a misunderstanding, I'll just add that I was using the updated terminology for a neutral wire. It's now referred to as the 'grounded conductor'. And the ground wire is still called 'ground'. The idea in the US N.E.C. is that the "neutral" always bonds to the ground at the main panel, never any sub-panel (unless very unique circumstances). So the 'white'/'neutral' wire is both a conductor but is also bonded at the main panel ground (the only location it does so). A separate ground wire 'green' or 'bare wire' is run through the wiring system and it's connected at every non-conducting (but conductive) metal point it can as well as all device bodies it can be. If there is ever a fault/short the 'ground wire' is it's path, not so much to earth (which is very important) but more importantly it's a path back to the breaker to make it 'trip'. The transformers feeding most building & homes, not requiring 3 phase, are already suppling 240v (two 120v lines with a bare wire 'neutral'/null center tap). In the breaker box(s) the outlets & lights (outlets not feeding 240v appliances / motors / inductors) use one of the 120v lines paired with a neutral or 'grounded conductor' to complete the circuit. In residential applications, only, they are allowed to mimic the lines from the transformer feeding the main panel and, if they choose to, run only three wires (ground wire not counted here) for two separate circuits sharing one neutral/'grounded conductor'. This is only applicable for non dedicated circuits and only allowed for general use / area lighting and plugs. The idea being that one 120v line for lighting, and the other out of phase 120v line for outlets, using/sharing the same neutral/white/'grounded conductor', are 'balanced' just as they come from the x-former. So the load can be handled by one 'grounded conductor' & saves some material costs. Conversely the term 'balanced power' I referred to above is it's common name similar to how everyone still calls the 'grounded conductor' the neutral. Balance power in the code also has a correct name which is 'Technical Power'. It ditches the neutral/'grounded conductor' and uses only both 120v lines, albeit stepped down via a second x-former to 60v/60v. A separate ground wire is still required to travel with these to connect to devices deemed required.
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Post by holmz on Feb 21, 2017 4:18:26 GMT -5
Basically the "neutral" is tied to ground so the whole pair does not float up to an ungodly offset from zero.
At the transform and at the house.
Not sure where they ties them in old country, but they would have something to keep them from float too far away from zero mean.
Or you do want the double insulated too to have to insulate both side up in the kV range.
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Post by kraftt on Feb 21, 2017 21:10:23 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head.
On those 3 wire 2 circuit (shared neutral) circuits I mentioned for residential... when you 'lose' the neutral (disconnects somewhere) the other leg of the 120v can find a path through an appliance etc. to the other 120v phase... and, well you already describe the mayhem that follows.
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amt
New Member
Posts: 4
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Post by amt on Mar 21, 2017 7:49:47 GMT -5
I just got my UK MT55 in the US, converted the power cable, and no problems. I used a Neutrik PowerCon True1 plug, so I can have a twist lock connection and eliminate a long cord permanently attached to the saw (I am converting all of my tools to this).
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Post by holmz on Mar 21, 2017 16:02:10 GMT -5
As the surfers say, 'Welcome on board'.
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Post by kraftt on Mar 21, 2017 20:12:58 GMT -5
Those connectors are pretty trick. I hadn’t seen them before I started reading this forum. I also see they have premade power cords with the True 1 connectors already molded on. You guys should make up a short pigtail using one of those connectors that reverts the cord back to standard female so the cord can do double duty on the jobsite. I made a hillbilly version last year using the Quail Q-lock (north america / non waterproof) where I came off the tool with a short Nema 5-15 male. Then cut off the female locking end from the Q-lock and made an anaconda splice onto a regular power cord (* use ‘inner melt’ heat shrink to finish off splice). Worked well, and of course the cord worked for other tools too. (Besides 18ga & 14 ga cords they also sell a 1 foot version in 16ga - if you just are after the locking female end). Which is fine if you are just using a short piece.)
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Post by kraftt on Mar 29, 2017 21:53:36 GMT -5
Picked up another one, kinda like it, going to leave it on for a while. Female end makes a nice click when inserted. Only downside as I mentioned is that you really need to splice end on to a more supple cord. I think they may have some other cord material options in longer sizes.   *edit: I should mention that one possible advantage of these is that the saw or other tool still has the traditional (north america) male plug compared to proprietary. If you forget to bring your proprietary or it fails/gets damaged you might be in for some down time or a work-around vs forgetting a Q-lock just means using any other extension on hand. |
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Post by reflector on Mar 31, 2017 18:21:08 GMT -5
That method's pretty smart, especially with how it uses the standard NEMA 5-15 end.
There's another, another alternative that I have seen: IEC 60320 C13/C14. Or what you have on a standard computer powersupply. I'm not sure about the retention factor and it definitely isn't water proof either, but I have seen it being use on a router before.
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Post by kraftt on Mar 31, 2017 21:14:14 GMT -5
That's an interesting observation. The IEC standard comes in a wide variety of options. I think I may have seen panel mount connections (for equip at least) with a locking tang you depress to remove. It may also be available on cord (?)
Come to think of it the panel mount connectors are very compact and might be able to be integrated into tool handles or bodies with the locking tang - that would be really trick. (*edit -LOL, just realized you wrote you've seen it on a router... wonder where I got the idea from??? That's some 'selective' memory).
I looked inside the locking end of the Q-lock and it seems to need the Nema male prongs to have those holes punched in them in order to lock - which is the standard for male ends anyways. But occasionally you do come across prongs without those holes. (what's the story behind those holes?).
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Post by reflector on Mar 31, 2017 22:05:56 GMT -5
I remember someone did it on Youtube using a router after they brought up the Festool connectors. I also have seen some images (But of what tools I don't remember) where people actually carved out part of their tool to fit an IEC connector inside.
I suspect there's probably subvariations/nonstandard configurations like you mentioned with locking mechanisms. It probably would cost less to build a cord like that, but you lose the water resistance. I don't think the Festool connectors are water resistant either. Then again there's no green koolaid with IEC connectors.
Wouldn't know about the holes, but that's an interesting observation. I rarely see cords without the holes on the pins, those would be very nonstandard and I usually see them on pieces of equipment from Asia (China mostly) that are brought back from other family members and aren't supposed to be "export" items... Maybe they're a distant relative of that Japanese connector that looks like our NEMA standards?
Edit: Remember who made the video again
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