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Post by shokunin on Oct 13, 2016 8:50:01 GMT -5
Hi Fellow Mafell users and greetings from Melbourne,Australia.
This is my first post and the first Mafell tool I own.After a lot of deliberation I took the plunge and purchased one of these from Bort and Hekert in Germany.(Ebay)
I bought the bare tool with the flexible guide rail.Cost of the tool landed in Australia was $1274 AUS.Equates to $961US.
I'm very impressed with the build quality and the compact size.Love the way it all fits in the systainer.
I've yet to test it out and have already purchased a Metabo 6.2 aH HD battery and will probably buy another 5.2 Metabo battery as well.
Even though I was aware it only had a Maximum cut depth of 40mm it's a shame Mafell couldn"t have increased the size of the blade marginally to achieve a cut depth of 46mm.
One of the standard timber sizes for wall studs here in Oz is 90x 45.It would have made the saw just that bit more versatile with a bigger blade.Hopefully they will release a tool with a larger blade in the near future.
I've also looked into the differences between the Bosch/mafell guide rail system in comparison to the Festool system.
I'm convinced the Bosch /Mafell tracks are far superior in many ways and will most likely be selling my Festool track saw along with all the guide rails I have.
One query I have about the KSS 40.Does anyone know if it has a brushless motor?
Cheers
Thomas.
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Oct 13, 2016 11:38:17 GMT -5
Welcome aboard. You do realise the reason for the saw only being 40mm depth of cut is so you have to follow the rules of n+1 as one mafell saw is never enough
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Post by GhostFist on Oct 13, 2016 12:06:00 GMT -5
Yes the 40 is indeed brushless and awesome
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Post by holmz on Oct 14, 2016 3:55:05 GMT -5
You can get the Bosch rails in country, which I did. They are good!
I am 2-days drive from you, and Lincoln is in the MLB area.
Don't forget to post if there are any noteworthy things coming up like WW conventions... Por favor .
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Post by shokunin on Nov 1, 2016 6:08:29 GMT -5
After having used the saw for a couple of weeks I absolutely LOVE IT!!!What a well built little tool and so light.
I'll definitely be getting rid of my Festool gear.
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Post by huntsgemein on Nov 11, 2016 4:11:36 GMT -5
One thing I've wondered is who actually makes the saw: i.e. in whose factory is it made? I'm guessing Metabo, as they're coming on in leaps & bounds with their electrically commutated motor tech. these days. In both 18v & 36v too. I especially like the 2 x 18v option that's going to be offered on the new 230mm grinder, but hate the price. The only one I've seen offered for sale (from Italy), with their topline ASC Ultra charger & 2 x 6.2 ah 36v batteries is b/s expensive @ Euro 1180, which translates to about 1900 South Pacific Pesos (AU$) inclusive of VAT/GST, Freight etc.
I imagine a company as "conservative" as Mafell will be testing the waters sales wise with their limited 18v & 10.8v ranges, before offering further choices. Given the respective prices, features & batteries offered between the Metabo/Mafell "clones", I can't see the specific Mafell version being a huge seller when the supplier (Metabo) may be offering similar at lesser expense or a similar price with upspecced batteries or the like.
For this reason, I suspect that if Mafell are indeed using Metabo's EC motor (from the KGS 216 LTX BL Miter Saw for example), then there may be a contractual embargo on Metabo/Hitachi Koki releasing a competitive model for a specified time period. The latter would be presumably using Metabo's incompatible guiderails too. That the Bosch/Mafell rail system is currently superior to all others is a given, and severely limits further "compatibility" in tracked tools between Metabo & Mafell too. Unfortunate.
Likewise, the continued use of (inferior) Bosch Batteries in the 36v class indicates to me a continued contractual arrangement with Bosch that in some ways (batteries & 36v EC motors for instance) has outlived its usefulness to Mafell, but which both they as marketers & we as consumers are stuck with at least for the forseeable future or until a contractual escape clause can be activated.
Doubly unfortunate. I still believe 36v (or my personal preference the more versatile 2 x 18v) is the minimum "professional" benchmark for high current drain tools like circular saws, 230mm/9" grinders etc. A bit of a sweet spot really, whereas my little gem of a 18v Metabo SCMS sometimes struggles a bit with hardwood scantling &/or blunt blades, whilst a 36v tool would tend to power through. I'm sure the little KSS40 is likewise a gem of a tool, but like the KGS18 a bit out of its depth (quite literally) in thicker hardwoods, which is why I suspect the depth of cut is intentionally limited to manageable proportions. A bigger 36v motor would be required for the essential 50mm cutting depth requirement of most building sites I suspect.
So how about it Mafell? What about getting your lawyers onto the job of changing battery & motor suppliers for your 36v class tools?
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Post by henrun on Jan 1, 2017 7:23:01 GMT -5
I do believe Mafell are developing their own motors, like the "Cuprex" motors, at least they have done so in the past. I do trust both Mafell and Metabo for motor reliability so it would not matter too much for me. Metabo has the "Marathon Motor" and I think they are still touting it in their recent line up by refreshing the concept over time. As far as the battery platforms I think that is a totally separate issue and if Mafell have started down the Metabo route I think they will keep to it for quite some time - it would make sense. Without knowing the extent of the cooperations I know all of the german players have cooperated with developing stuff or contracting solutions cross platforms: Bosch, Metabo, Mafell, Fein and Festool. On top of these five I think we could add a few companies that we haven't heard much of before. I have over the years heard of many a collaboration on minor and major stuff but I am sure I only heard a little part of it. Licensing and exclusive rights for some solutions for a few years was probably common practice. Today I think the competition is so fierce and that the life cycle of battery technology and the product longevity are both working for and against locking in a product line to a specific solution. It works for the company by allowing for backwards compatibility (newer batteries work with older products) but against the company when there is a shift / tipping point in technology like the reduction in battery platforms from 10,8 / 12 / 14,4 / 18 / 36V to more or less 10,8 and 18V "only" with a few companies "stuck" with 14,4 platforms that are "redundant" but needs to be maintained due to the amount of customers locked in to that category. For me the 10,8 and 18V does it all, light and powerful machines available and for the extra power hungry machines a dual 18V solution does the job. Even if there are 12V solutions out there still, I think they are merely a 14,4V substitute rather than an 18V replacement for the most part. It feels like the 18V range is the new "standard" and while the machines of yesteryear were clumsy and heavy there are today a lot of lightweight 18V machines to do the job that you once were browsing the 12V category for. I think the 36V systems are a bit dated for sure and at the time of locking in to that platform there was simply nothing else in that power demanding range of tools that could do the trick. Brushless motors were not in common use and battery technology was still short of the tipping point to where people would choose cordless over corded machines. The sparky I know used to haul a Bosch 36V drill as a "one trick pony" in a big plastic suitcase but with the advent of the Bosch 18V hammerdrills he simply has no use for it anymore, the new drills are a lot lighter and packs pretty much the same punch in a much smaller format. ' If anything I think 18V has potential for Mafell to exploit to some degree. The Hitachi/Metabo (Metachi or Hitabo?) merger might have slowed down that cooperation a little as the ownership/management has shifted but in the long run it might mean even better products when and if there is a technology cross over from Metabo to Hitachi and vice versa. Time will tell huh? In the mean time I feel more confident than before that I am "locked in" to a pretty solid 18V platform.  |
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Post by huntsgemein on Jan 1, 2017 19:33:17 GMT -5
Mafell have long had expertise in producing high powered mains universal motors. Yet I doubt the same is true of either low voltage DC or EC motors. Mafell's last few cordless tools have been rebadged AEG, Bosch & Metabos. Surely it's the latter 3 that likewise made the internals of these tools too. As far as I'm aware Mafell have yet to produce any EC motors, instead relying on Metabo's excellent version, and haven't for quite some time produced any other sort of DC motor either.
The fact that there's 3 separate battery platforms is also significant. I'm personally no great fan of the Rob't Bosch 36v system. Nevertheless, I,ve used it extensively over the past decade or so. I've had ten 36v Bosch landscaping & worksite tools, with five chargers & some 10 batteries or so. Even given the extraordinarily unprecedented high current flow available from the latest Sanyo/Panasonic cells, they must surely be approaching their physical limits. At some 67 odd amps, this is over six times that allowed for mains electrical appliances! Little wonder then that many cordless devices are liable to catch fire. I've had Bosch cordless drills AND batteries get too hot to handle whilst holesawing steel girders. Most airlines and postal services now ban the airfreight of lithium ion tool batteries as too dangerous to aircraft & occupants.
Yet even at a current peak of 66.6 A or some 1200 watts, many 18v EC appliances struggle in heavy duty workloads. In my experience the Mafell/Metabo 18v EC saws struggle in hardwoods, requiring limited blade diameters (& depths of cut) to maintain efficiency. Great for lighter cutting in flooring, softwoods & thinner sheet materials, but severely compromised (as are all manufacturers' cordless tools to date) in hardwood scantling & the like. This severely limits their viability in most current worksites in my opinion.
One obvious solution is to increase the voltage of these tools. DeWalt have gone down this route, offering dual 20/60v (actually 18/54v) batteries to fit their pro grade site tools in both single & twin battery confugurations. Trouble is, to triple a batteries voltage is to simultaneously divide current capability by 1/3, meaning that at a nominal 60v the capacity decreases to an unworkably frustrating 2 AH, necessitating constant battery change & recharging! Bosch (& Mafell) use bigger 36v batteries to reduce current demand/increase output, but at a mere 2.6 AH are likewise compromised. Bosch already use higher output Sanyo/Pana cells on their pro landscaping range of tools with 36v 6.0AH cells. Metabo & Makita (who are probably the leaders in cordless tech.) are, or will soon, offer the choice of either 36v or 2 x 18v cells, both with the latest high current cells.
It still seems that 36v remains the standard for high current demand tools: saws, HD grinders, SDS drills & chasers (not the smaller lighter fixing hammers). I'd think it doubtful that we will ever see current outputs of 135 or 140 Amps for lithium battery cells. This would be approaching almost pyrotechnic if not outright explosive energy levels. It's possibly more likely that we'd need something like hydrogen fuel cell powered devices to achieve these sort of outputs.
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Post by holmz on Jan 3, 2017 13:04:28 GMT -5
Or use a cord.
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Post by arvid on Jan 3, 2017 13:13:32 GMT -5
or use a battery and not run 200 feet of cord from the roof to the ground. |
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Post by holmz on Jan 3, 2017 14:49:22 GMT -5
In that case you have a very valid point.
The batteries are getting pretty good these days, but the node7 is an example of the potential for issues.
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Post by arvid on Jan 3, 2017 16:39:05 GMT -5
In that case you have a very valid point. The batteries are getting pretty good these days, but the node7 is an example of the potential for issues. i combat one issue at a time. and right now my issue is a cord. |
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Post by huntsgemein on Jan 3, 2017 17:26:10 GMT -5
Sometimes there's just no substitute for the effortless, tireless productivity of mains tools. Both classes of tool have their place.
One of the major differences is that mains tools seem to have reached their developmental peak sometime around about the 1980's when classic designs like keyless chucks & toolless consumable exchange, Elu's electronic routers, Festo/Holz Her's belt & rotex sanders, AEG's intelligent drills, Metabo's safety grinders, Bosch hammers & Mafell's amazing saws were released in versions that in many fundamental ways have either remained essentially unchanged since or have actually devolved into a rather poor facsimile of the original tool's utility & integrity. The recent "big" innovations like EC motors are more an offshoot of cordless tool R&D.
Cordless tool development (at least for most key players) seem to be developing at an exponential rate, whereas mains tools are evolving much more incrementally.
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Post by arvid on Jan 3, 2017 17:32:52 GMT -5
Sometimes there's just no substitute for the effortless, tireless productivity of mains tools. Both classes of tool have their place. One of the major differences is that mains tools seem to have reached their developmental peak sometime around about the 1980's when classic designs like keyless chucks & toolless consumable exchange, Elu's electronic routers, Festo/Holz Her's belt & rotex sanders, AEG's intelligent drills, Metabo's safety grinders, Bosch hammers & Mafell's amazing saws were released in versions that in many fundamental ways have either remained essentially unchanged since or have actually devolved into a rather poor facsimile of the original tool's utility & integrity. The recent "big" innovations like EC motors are more an offshoot of cordless tool R&D. Cordless tool development (at least for most key players) seem to be developing at an exponential rate, whereas mains tools are evolving much more incrementally. very well said. |
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Post by henrun on Jan 5, 2017 13:36:07 GMT -5
I was, until last year, not particularly keen on battery operated tools - with the exception of screwdrivers. With the run time and capacity of the tools of today I have shifted to quite the opposite: in my basic kit I have almost no corded tools at all and I don't miss the cord. I have yet to feel like my set up is underpowered or lacking in run time or capacity for a full days work. The tipping/turning point was the Mafell KSS 40 and then the Metabo SCMS. I will not replace a great corded tool with an "ok-ish" cordless. Well, I dont use my corded Fein Supercut too often so it has been replaced by the Metabo, which is ok, but not great. But it does the job without me throwing a fit, and then the tool.  Should I find a task for the corded Fein I can always bring it. As for sanders, routers and the Festool RAS115 and such I can't really see myself replacing my corded tools anytime soon though. I am happy with the mixing of corded and cordless and the shift towards more cordless than corded is convenient but I don't think or even wish for having all of them cordless. |
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Should I find a task for the corded Fein I can always bring it.