Post by MrToolJunkie on Jun 5, 2016 17:09:22 GMT -5
Well said and I agree. The P1CC is the best jigsaw I have ever used and it continually amazes me every time I use it. I get glue-ready joints with it and have no hesitation using it instead of breaking out other tools. This allows me to work in a more confined space and be more portable. I get glass-smooth cuts all the time in 4/4 and 8/4 stock - does not matter what the material is. I also find I can get near perfect 90 degree cuts with any blade I use as well. So I believe the the blade mechanism is doing its job far better than a roller or some other blade guidance system. It works extremely well and is very smooth.
This is my personal perspective but I think blades with sufficient clearance when the P1cc is set at the proper pendulum means it'll avoid recutting the swarf. In (metal) machining you always want to avoid recutting the swarf because that'll lead to reduced surface finish quality in combination with other problems. The combination of the cooler running blade and dust extraction (As well as some cooling of the blade from the air blown across it) I think is the biggest factor. Even if you don't have the dust extractor, it keeps blowing sufficient amounts of air right into the side of the blade which means there's significant airflow hitting the blade and probably dust being blown off.
In machining, rigidity (As well as vibration dampening) of the tool and workpiece is a desired characteristic. The P1cc does something really special when you put a blade into it and shut the lever: The blade audibly goes "twang" and vibrates visibly. When you push the blade while its held, it seems to be extremely stiff. Putting it into another jigsaw (A guilty admission: I only have significant experience with the P1cc and the Bosch 12V jigsaw as those are what I personally own) I don't experience the blade stiffening up suddenly. I can still push the blade and deflect it with less force. The P1cc's clamping mechanism seems to achieve maximum rigidity and I would assume that gives other favorable characteristics like a more "optimal" cut (Instead of the blade drifting/bending and rubbing on the sides)
There is one thing I noticed with the Skeleton blades: Cutting upside down can mean a lot of dust appears on the top of your work. I didn't experience that as much with the Bosch blades but I had to blow the dust off to follow the cut line for the Skeleton blades.
I will have to add the Bosch T101AOF to my list of blades to try as well, it seems to be differentiated from the T101BO. It seems to be a bimetal blade (Instead of HCS) with a slightly enlarged profile but the tooth geometry is the same. Funny enough, I have a T101BO that is a little blued but it seems to cut perfectly fine in the P1cc. Doesn't seem to be reduced in effectiveness at all.
Tried out the T308BO today. It looks identical to the T308BFP which threw me off. Maybe I will have to dial in settings for the T308BFP but the T308BO seems to cut through construction lumber easily and it leaves a smooth finish as well. For 1.5" thick construction lumber I found that setting the pendulum between 2-3 works fine even during a scrolling cut. Speed was at 3. There is a definite difference between the T308BO and T308BFP: The T308BFP practically looks identical (TPI, blade profile, tooth profile, "apparent thickness." I will have to measure the actual thickness later. Maybe it is a hair bit thicker on the T308BFP) but it resists bending significantly more when I hold them and push on them.
I also tried the T1044DP out. It seems to jump a lot in two 1.5" pieces. I wasn't impressed by the results coming from it but I think that's going to be related to user technique moreso than anything. Definitely turn off the pendulum if you want a straight cut and you plan on entering the material at a shallow angle. It visibly jumps at the very end. At speed 4 and above it makes the P1cc vibrate significantly. This is a bit of a hypothesis but I think it is more suited for an actual large piece of timber than stacked 2x material. It is also fairly sensitive about how you enter the material since if you have the pendulum above 3 going the blade can actually vibrate side to side the moment it engages the material.
Edit: To clarify for anyone else reading my posts for the first time smooth means "practically a glass or plastic like surface" or "finished with P3000 Abralon." That's typically in rip or crosscuts directionally. I only see this kind of surface finish with insanely slow feed rates on a table saw where the feed is right above the point that it'll burn the wood and instead it burnishes the surface lightly. Using my fingernail to attempt to detect the pattern left by the various blades I've tested would be futile.
Last Edit: Jun 11, 2016 5:46:19 GMT -5 by reflector
I started paying a lot of attention to jigsaw blades after seeing the P1cc Perfection topic and getting my P1cc. After seeing the difference it made for 7 to go from the Bosch and Festool blade. Seeing what the P1cc could do I had to explore what differences were part of the jigsaw blades.
Next up for testing is the Spyder Double Sided Jigsaw blade. The T308BO kind of lets me turn tight-ish (Compared to the Spyder Skeleton which is pretty much a straight line blade) but it isn't like the tiny scrolling radius of the T101AO. The biggest problem is the T101AO doesn't work in 1.5" thick material. Already have the Spyders and I've been trying to get the Starretts for later.
I've been making crossed half laps with the P1cc recently for a tracksaw cutting surface on two sawhorses. Maybe I'm just inexperienced and crazy but since I can't comfortably make them using a table saw (No dado stack yet, sliding it back and forth after making two passes like a speed tenon is a bit much for me and too much sawdust everywhere) and using a router is dust, dust and dust everywhere along with loud cuts. The P1cc I've been practically able to cut the two verticals spot on (A little filing or sanding afterwards needed sometimes since 2x4s aren't consistently "spot on" 1.5") and the horizontal I need some cleanup on. I find that the P1cc lets me do this way faster than what the above. Cut straight with consistent feed speed right up to the line. Diagonal cut to remove part of the waste. A closer diagonal cut to give me more clearance for the turn. One turn over to give me a horizontal reference and one straight through and that gives me a finished full lap. The only way for me to push out clean half laps faster is really with a dado stack and enough clearance for me to put a 7' long 2x4 on (Not happening with my current setup either... Gah)
With all those half laps I get a lot of testing time with the various blades. That and no band saw either (And I don't think I could think of a way to fit the middle of that 7' 2x4 into a bandsaw either)
Last Edit: Jun 11, 2016 9:21:34 GMT -5 by reflector
Nice, I often resort to using my kss40 for half laps at any angle simply because set up is dead easy ant the process almost becomes thoughtless. This is a repeat kerf cut process but you can blast out a load of them really fast, both connecting pieces at once even. Nice to know that accurate joinery is doable with the p1cc, something I doubt most people would consider even trying with a run of the mill jigsaw
When I was cutting the half laps with the P1cc, I had a small cutoff from one 2x4 that I used as my reference. At first I marked the center of the 1.5" section and then went back with an Incra T Rule and marked the .75" offsets to each side and cut right up to the pencil line edge. Didn't fit obviously and I realized that I was being silly by leaving a sliver of a pencil line and I had to sand and file on that attempt. Afterwards I cut right up on the line and even further I just offset more than .75" and left the sliver of the pencil line behind.
While all the cuts worked on my test piece... I found out later that with the other pieces they were tight to the point you had to percussively persuade* the pieces for disassembly once you pushed them together. Otherwise the 2x material was out of dimension by around +1/16 to +1/8th. I ended up sanding, filing and chiseling some of the half laps I was using on the sawhorses to ensure that they'd be oversized so I wouldn't have that issue (And that I wouldn't have tolerances too tight to put on more than 2 pieces.) I'm going to be intentionally overcutting slightly for the remainder of my test cuts but I'll be oversizing the pencil lines at this point.
*They were seriously tight fitting half laps for a cut dividing a 0.5mm pencil line. The pieces would audibly squeak from friction during assembly. The smooth surfaces of the cut were probably contributing to the sound I suspect...
How not to sharpen a jigsaw blade: 1. Use the P1cc as normal, it gets very jumpy in a cut. Touch the blade and realize its burning hot... 2. Exchange blade and find that it doesn't seem jumpy 3. Look at the jigsaw blade you were using, notice about 6 teeth with rounded over edges 4. Stare at the jigsaw blade and think "maybe I could quickly touch the teeth up and see if this is a viable idea..." 5. Touch up the chiseled teeth profile up from the top using swiss diamond files 6. Decide "wow, this thing practically has no set, I bet I could hit it up all the way to a 6400 grit equivalent diamond paddle" 7. Do exactly that and polish the blade, wash any metallic swarf off the blade and dry it 7a. Admire handiwork by touching the teeth of the blade, which is sharper than a new one. Decide to lightly polish the sides of a new blade.... 8. Place it in the P1cc and find it can't cut deeper than 2mm without suddenly jumping all over the place 9. Realize that even if it practically can't turn and appears to not have any set, that it probably has the tiniest amount of clearance behind the teeth. Touch the blade and realize its burning hot...
Lesson of the day: The Spyder Skeleton blades have some kind of funny taper grind that has the tips of the teeth extending out minutely, even they don't appear to and even if they can't cut anything but straight and slightly less straight lines.
10. ...Try to undo this mistake by removing material from behind the blade 11. Blades both now cut into material but they're still jumpy 12. Realize own foolishness and hubris in doing that to a brand new blade instead of testing the resharpened blade first...
I should of realized there was some kind of taper grind going on. I will have to explore if the idea of just lightly cleaning the sides of the blade works on the Bosch blades as they visibly have a taper grind instead of what could be a taper+set on the Skeleton blades. Anything that heats up to the point it feels like it burns your hand within a straight 1-2" cut in 2x material seems to be the indicator that a blade is effectively done. The P1cc runs blades so cool that at worst you'll feel the heat and want to put the blade down immediately when you grasp it with pressure (Especially the chisel points on the teeth). Anything hotter than that means the blade is probably rubbing in the cut or really worn out.
Bosch T308BFP: I found that setting the speed to 3-4 actually works much better on 2x material, even if you have the pendulum cranked up to 5 you'll get clean rip cuts. Do not try to cut tight-ish curves with it, it'll jump. The T308BO oddly does not jump even if they practically look the same. I will have to measure the thickness of both to determine the thickness. The T308BFP also deflects a lot less, I can enter a cut at extremely shallow angles (<20 degrees) and clean up as well as square a cut.
Spyder Double Sided Jigsaw Blade: Maybe I am not nailing this right, but it is also tends to jump if you try to make tightish cuts with it. I suspect it works just as well as the Bosch T101AO in thin materials but trying to turning it tight like that in 2x does not work. Also produced clean cuts at speed 3 and pendulum 3 if you stick with mild (Radius ~ 2-3 inches) curves and straight lines. It is however a really thin blade in profile. I will have to check if it works better in 0.75" lumber.
Last Edit: Jun 12, 2016 16:28:17 GMT -5 by reflector: Edit: Burns = Feels like it burns. The blade cuts fine and doesn't change color but its worn out
Just tried out the T345XF Progressor (Had a few but I never got to using them). It is definitely a rough finish blade (Obvious from the large amount of set on each tooth) but it is fairly free cutting due to the large kerf it makes and you can turn with it much easier than you could with most of the ground or taper ground blades. It also clears dust out very easily when combined with the pendulum action.
I also found out a method to determine a blade is bimetal even if you can't read the markings on the shank (Assume the markings are worn off): There is a very obvious line starting where the metal is bonded together and it is fairly present towards the T shank. This line isn't as obvious on ground blades but you can see it on blades with set teeth. You can see this on the shank of the T308BFP but is even more clear on the T345XF because each tooth has the seam where they attach the strip to and it leads right to the shank. The exception to this I assume is the Starrett blades where the bimetallic elements are bonded to the outside but I will have to look at some closer when I get a chance to get some. Maybe there is a bond line on those where they bond the bimetallic strips on.
I am also curious as to the difference to the T308BO, T308BFP and T308BP. I don't have the T308BP but it looks like the T308BO and T308BFP have effectively the same geometry.* Looking at photos of the T308BP online it looks the same too. Oddly enough the differentiation between the T308BFP and T308BO is sufficient enough to mean that the BO will turn whereas the BFP doesn't like turning in cuts (And has considerable stiffness in comparison).
I also believe the T308BFP is "stiffer" than the Skeleton blades, even if I subjectively test their resistance to bending in my hands. The T308BFP lets me "clean up" cuts by simply angling the teeth on one side and lightly pushing the blade into the cut. The cut towards the bottom of the blade will typically engage on softwood at 1.5" depth. This is in comparison with the Skeleton blades where you can see the chips being formed as nudge it in at a shallow angle but I only see it being formed towards the top. This is especially obvious if you're rip cutting as the wood chips tend to curl up for the first millimeter or two into the cut before it comes off.
On the flipside: The T234X Progressors are definitely "noodly" blades if you bend test them. I have not done a shallow angle entry cut to see how much it deflects yet. I have also noticed the T234X are pretty good when it comes chip clearance, but I think the Spyder has them beat when it comes to upside down usage.
This is also another thing I noticed: Several cutting blades from Bosch effectively two geometries on the teeth. This is most obvious on the T234 Progressor blades where the top and bottom halves have completely different teeth and the spacing gets wider towards the bottom of the blade. The T308B also has the two sets of teeth going on and this is present throughout the T308B family (BF, BFP, BO. NAINA blades I can't buy: BOF, BF (A T308B but bimetallic for hardwood, this is something I'm really curious about now)).
*Edit: The T308BO appears to have a little more of a taper to its profile than the T308BFP which almost looks untapered. I will have to measure this, will post results.
Last Edit: Jun 16, 2016 2:53:06 GMT -5 by reflector
Nothing on the Bosch, but I used a "W1" Mafell yesterday and it was a gopher chewing cut ~2-3 mm wide, and ripping the top layer of the ply' veneer up. Put the narrower "L 2"and it was a smooth narrow little cut.
Post by mafelluser on Apr 11, 2017 13:55:48 GMT -5
I can't comment on using them with a P1CC, since I've never owned one (I happen to use a Bosch jigsaw, until such time as I can afford a P1CC), but, purely in terms of the blade itself, I concur with Reflector, that Bosch's T234X is hard to beat for a mass-market blade. It is an absolutely superb performer, but will only cut straight lines (please don't try to force it to cut curves - you'll just stress the blade and the jigsaw).
I tend to use my jigsaw for kitchen-fitting tasks, which tends to be mostly straight lines in approx/ 40mm chipboard laminate worktops, and the T234X blade is fantastic for this.
One day I'll get around to upgrading to a P1CC... ONE day...! ;-)
Last Edit: Apr 11, 2017 13:57:32 GMT -5 by mafelluser
jimmyford: Can anyone mill a corian piece that will fit into the mafell rail for use with the mft3?
Aug 17, 2019 14:18:58 GMT -5
bengt: Oh please the ks60 is better in every way. 60 degree miter in both directions. Bevels past 45(essential in a saw that must cut on the flat) Bigger blade more capacity. The Metabo hpt has 57 degree miter max and 45 bevel max.
Sept 9, 2019 20:02:24 GMT -5
abdon: I stand corrected , the angle fence is only attaches with F -Tracks , what confused me was , that the Timberwolf site mentioned it will work with the NFU machine, yes it will work but only I guess when you use the Ftrack , with other tracks Like the KSS L.
Nov 28, 2020 22:52:01 GMT -5
glynnco: Did you order from GereedschapPro? I see them as in stock but I'm located in the US and am not sure if they ship here. I sent them an email asking about shipping but it was returned undeliverable...
Dec 10, 2020 7:37:40 GMT -5
jonathan: I've purchased a lot of stuff from our neighbours @ GereedschapPro.nl As far as I know they are one of the larger Mafell dealers in the EU. I can recommend them, they usually respond quickly.
Dec 11, 2020 13:58:36 GMT -5
NFU 50 Transportation?: Hi Guys, is there some Systainer for the NFU 50?
Dec 11, 2020 14:30:12 GMT -5
frezik24: Hello everyone
Dec 13, 2020 9:20:00 GMT -5
lasse: Thanks for the tip! I have own a mafell rail which is 160 cm and one that is 80 cm. Will it work just as well or will I need to buy rail that is 110 cm?
Mar 18, 2021 15:35:15 GMT -5