Mark
Junior Member
Posts: 72
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Post by Mark on Nov 5, 2015 10:26:54 GMT -5
Theres another toolfair in Surrey. 5th + 6th Nov. toolfair.info/sandown-park/Wanna have a good look at the KSS60 and K65. Also like the Panasonic new drills. Saw them at the last show. felt really grippy, apparently covered in the same rubber as road tyres, and the impact drill which had very short stubby head. Will try and make an effort to go. Hopefully take pics. www.dm-tools.co.uk/events_diary.phpWent there today. Very busy most of the powertool usuals there even Hilti. Mafell had a very small stall. Didnt have the kss60 of the K65. The guys were shocked I knew about them. Said that they normally know about the new stuff from other clients! As Mafell seem to be very secretive. They like to leave it at the very last moment before it goes on sale. If anyones thinking of going bear in mind its for builders plumbers and electricals. So powertools stalls are a lot smaller and less range. And get there early or after 1 (less busy).
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Post by jm on Dec 14, 2015 12:50:31 GMT -5
Mafell posted some official videos today:
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Post by rizzoa13 on Dec 14, 2015 16:42:33 GMT -5
The kss60 not being a metabo 18v still burns me up. I'm in the market for a battery powered saw and want the kss60 for depth of cut but km not getting another battery line when I'm moving everything else over to the 18v LiHD. So stupid of them.
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Post by GhostFist on Dec 14, 2015 18:15:11 GMT -5
Well 36v would have been a different battery anyway. I like the Metabo batts though. Who knows what's happening with Metabo after the Hitachi buy out
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Post by jm on Dec 14, 2015 18:29:50 GMT -5
Well 36v would have been a different battery anyway. I like the Metabo batts though. Who knows what's happening with Metabo after the Hitachi buy out Hopefully LiHD chainsaws and nailers!
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Post by rizzoa13 on Dec 15, 2015 17:28:41 GMT -5
36v would be a different battery but Im pretty confident one of the 5.2 or 6.0ah 18v LiHD could power that saw no problem. And for many cuts.
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Post by GhostFist on Dec 15, 2015 18:03:16 GMT -5
For a saw meant to cut rafters and studs and whatnot, I still prefer 36v. A 6.2amp LiHD 36v would be even better. Not sure what the amps are, off hand, on the Bosch batteries. I do not like the double 18v battery config
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Dec 16, 2015 5:07:34 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure mafell did the tests on the different battery platforms vs 220v. 18 volts gave the same cutting speed upto 40mm or just short then performance dropped rapidly needing a higher voltage to get the same performance as mains power. Which I think is there main aim. The current bosh batteries are 2.6 amps compared to 4.2 which is also available for. No idea why maybe a price thing. I know festoon has the 2 18v to give 36 , yet when I've picked up the very tool it felt bulky compared to my 36v. Also I know the hkc is 18v which is fine for thin board when cutting compound angles I feel the saws really need the power of 36v for them type of cuts. Also not sure if the new kss60 36b is a brushless motor need to find out
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Post by jm on Dec 19, 2015 16:26:47 GMT -5
A lot of you were wondering what the LiHD cells were, I just cracked mine open. They're Sanyo NCR20700A cells, which when you search Google, comes up with nothing. Seems like they've got a pretty exclusive deal w/ them to sell these. One member on werkzeug-news tested these to 80A continuous! If I'm reading through Google Translate right, he said this should enable cordless tools with outputs between 1280-1360W on an 18v platform, which is nuts. For reference, the corded TS55REQ is only 1200W, the Makita SP6000J and the Mafell MT55cc are 1400W. This might cause some mfgs to rethink the need to go to 36v. www.werkzeug-news.de/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36457&start=70
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Post by GhostFist on Dec 19, 2015 17:23:06 GMT -5
Cool to know! Might be a question for some of our electro scientists to pontificate. How exactly does this compare to corded power?
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Post by jm on Dec 19, 2015 20:04:40 GMT -5
It really depends how hard Metabo is willing to push the batteries. The tester on the German forum pushed them to 40A/cell (for a total of 80A from the 6.2Ah pack) and kept them under 85 degrees C, which is how he netted the ~1300W figure he quoted.
15A @ 120VAC would be 1800W at the plug, which is really the maximum we see on most tools sold in the states. There are some that go up to 20A, but it's avoided due to 20A capable NEMA 5-20R receptacles being much more rare.
However, brushless DC motors are somewhere near 90% efficient, and AC motors are much lower, it stands to reason we could have more powerful 18v cordless brushless tools than brushed 120VAC tools in the future.
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Post by holmz on Dec 19, 2015 20:10:56 GMT -5
Cool to know! Might be a question for some of our electro scientists to pontificate. How exactly does this compare to corded power? Corded works as long as the genset or power station is running. The charger works as long as the genset of power station is running. The batteries have finite capacity. I believe (But am not sure), that ideally the tools would have AC converted to DC and then the tools could be identical internally having DC presented to the motor. Then you would either plug in a battery, or a transformer that went to the wall that looked like a male end of battery from the tools female perspective.
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Post by Red on Dec 26, 2015 11:19:34 GMT -5
It really depends how hard Metabo is willing to push the batteries. The tester on the German forum pushed them to 40A/cell (for a total of 80A from the 6.2Ah pack) and kept them under 85 degrees C, which is how he netted the ~1300W figure he quoted. 15A @ 120VAC would be 1800W at the plug, which is really the maximum we see on most tools sold in the states. There are some that go up to 20A, but it's avoided due to 20A capable NEMA 5-20R receptacles being much more rare. However, brushless DC motors are somewhere near 90% efficient, and AC motors are much lower, it stands to reason we could have more powerful 18v cordless brushless tools than brushed 120VAC tools in the future. There's much to think about in this post, but the concept of cordless and brushless tools outpowering their ACV powered cousins is what I find the most interesting. However enlightened we would all [instantly] become, it's really wishful thinking to expect the power tool industry to invest the funds required to push cordless power sources to this extreme. We already own a 36V cordless saw and, quite frankly, it suffers from the same [major] shortcoming identified by Mr. Holmz; namely, finite capacity.
By the way, our main Subaru-Robin 12KW genset is coming up on its seventh birthday, and it came equipped with a bank of GFCI-protected NEMA 5-20R receptacles. I'm literally looking at a box full of NEMA 6-20P plugs -- which we acquired for our imported tools and friends' 230/240 VAC tools -- so I suppose you could say that I'm guessing, without even really thinking about it, that ACV tools will be with us for quite some time to come.
From a practical standpoint, the builder in me tells me that both cordless and ACV power tools have their place(s). When you're on a remote task -- like on a roof, for instance -- the cordless stuff really shines. When you're at a workstation -- like a 4 x 8 panel cutting setup -- the ACV powered tools really earn their keep. Cordless tools that make us all forget about power cords would be quite the revolution, but there's simply too much money to be made under the "36V" [or even larger] slogan to expect this kind of turnaround in the industry...and, quite honestly, I hope I'm wrong.
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Post by jm on Dec 27, 2015 0:23:17 GMT -5
@red It depends on the market landscape, really.
If you've paid attention to the cordless impact wrench market, you'll know there is quite a power struggle to get to ridiculously high torque outputs. Ingersoll Rand started at 1100 ft lbs reverse torque about 4 years ago (which BTW, is about double the torque rating of any corded impact, on par with pneumatic guns of similar size), which Milwaukee matched the following year. DeWalt and Makita released their guns recently with 1200 and 1250 ft lb ratings.
If some other mfg jumps in and starts really pushing a market segment (I.e. Milwaukee is pushing their brushless drills to 1200 in lbs as a response to Makita having their 1100 in lb drill), then I could totally see the market evolving to a power war across the board.
The energy density might not be enough for some, but as long as batteries can last longer than the charge times, then having 3 batteries in a rotation should satisfy the needs of most. You'd only really need to go corded when you have the tool switched on the entire day.
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Post by Red on Dec 27, 2015 12:22:30 GMT -5
We've more than paid attention to the cordless market, JM, we've invested in it. Here's a photo and the obligatory specifications for our latest impact driver, the Made In Japan LXDT06Z...and, as you can see, the max torque is rated at 1,500 inch-lbs:
Once again, I hope that I'm wrong about Corded vs, Cordless, but my opinion certainly isn't handicapped due to a lack of research.
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