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Post by Red on Sept 15, 2015 15:27:50 GMT -5
I'm no cabinet maker, but I've cut and fit M&T joinery most of my life, so I definitely see some uses for a high-quality biscuit joiner. As the bulk of our board members are discerning enough to purchase the Mafell brand, it should come as no surprise to most that I prefer investing our hard-earned into the best tools I can reasonably obtain. With this thought in mind, I'd like to ask those in the know about the differences between the big Festool joiner system and anything comparable that's manufactured by Lamello.
I have to admit that the "look" of seeing a [relatively] large tenon -- albeit a glued tenon -- joined to an equivalent mortise has a natural appeal. I've seen this very thing demonstrated with the Festool product, but, given the price of the big Domino XL, research into the competition is certainly warranted.
Thanks for your time 
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Post by holmz on Sept 15, 2015 15:59:48 GMT -5
I got one of those DX700s. If I was doing it again, I would look harder at the DD40, but you have more access to large wood than I do. Did the door with the 700 using the 500 sized bit last weekend. festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/kitchen-cabinet-door/msg415438/#msg415438Awaiting the hinges. I will be using the DX700 for some gates soon. Which is more appropriate for its size. If it is timber or fine furniture one generally uses tenon attached to the wood rather than blind/floating. For sheet goods, it is dowels or biscuits, or dominos. In my mind the Domino is in between... But it works well so far. |
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Post by lincoln on Sept 15, 2015 16:00:17 GMT -5
Hey Red,
As far as I know, Lamello dont make anything comparable to a Domino. Their biscuit joiner is a fantastic, top quality tool, but nothing like a loose tenon cutting tool.
Biscuit joints are great for 'flushing up' panels, and for cabinet construction. Wouldn't use biscuits for anything that's going to be stressed - doors, etc.
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jacko
Junior Member
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Post by jacko on Sept 15, 2015 18:42:04 GMT -5
Red, I purchased the Lamello Top 10 many years ago and have been very satisfied with it but, it did not replace my Inca Major Table saw with mortising attachment where I could use end cutting milling machine cutters to give me satisfactory Mortises with my Tenons on the Table saw.
About 8 years ago when Festool came out with the Domino 500 Joiner I had already sold my Inca Saw and was looking at a Stand Alone Slot Mortising machine (the Lamello Top 10 just doesn't produce sturdy M&T joints).
I like my Domino 500 Jointer but, I was put off my the limitations of Tenon sizes so, when they introduced the Domino XL 700 I ordered one and now both machines are used in my furniture making shop.
I have no regrets with either Festool Domino Joiner and would highly recommend either machine depending on the scope of your work.
Jack
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Post by jalvis on Sept 21, 2015 9:17:21 GMT -5
Lamello's biscuit joiner is primarily for fast flush joints on panels. Biscuits are easier to align over a long run unlike tenons and dowels. There are other advantages with the lamello like there mechanical fasteners. I have the DD40 and the 500 Domino and rarely use the domino. I still think the 700 and the DD40 are the best pairing.
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Post by Red on Sept 21, 2015 16:44:56 GMT -5
Well, the posts I've received thus far certainly show the distinction between joint cutters and folks involved with fine cabinet work. 
I had no idea there were so many variants when it comes to forming laminated panels and/or creating finished corner joints.
If anyone has the time for it, perhaps a primer on the different types of joiner systems is in order. As I mentioned, I've seen the faux M&T joints rendered by the Festool Domino XL DF 700 system and, yes, they look pretty substantial. Nevertheless, it seems that my use of the phrase "biscuit joiner" only applies to a certain type of joiner.
Is a "domino" a certain type of tenon, as opposed to a "biscuit"? I'm also seeing the term "dowels" being mentioned in this regard, which leads me to believe that certain joiners simply cut round holes ... anyway, I'm sure it's clear by now that I don't have a clue about this type of tool, so please feel free to take me to school.
Thanks again for your time,
Red
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Post by charley1968 on Sept 21, 2015 19:43:03 GMT -5
A Domino is made of wood, beech or sipo, i believe. A bisquit/Lamello is made of compressed sawdust, hence no structural strenght. The advantage with the Lamello jointer lies in the fact that there're some clever bisquit-formed locks or hooks that allow you to deconstruct furniture. Also, i think the Lamello is more often used in conjunction with sheet material whereas the Dominos are good for sheet material and genuine wood. Then there's the thickness of the Lamello: I think it's 3mm. With the Domino 500 it starts with 4mm, the 700XL with 8mm. So , the Lamello can be used on far thinner stock. The Lamello is more forgiving when you put together two pieces of whatever. With the Domino it depends on how wide you set the mortise and that could potentially weaken the joint. The sipo-dominos are meant for outdoor use, the Lamellos are meant for indoor use, with the caveat that there are plastic/steel joining elements.
I hope i told you something you didn't know.
Best regards A. |
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Post by holmz on Sept 22, 2015 0:42:56 GMT -5
Red - The DD40 will do dowel holes. I think up to 16-mm which is a bit bigger than 5/8" Biscuits keep the planes aligned (In Z assuming Y is along the joint and Z is up), but the joint has some movement during glue up on the long football-shaped biscuit's long axis (Y). The DD40 does 2 holes so you get Y/Z alignment, and two holes versus 1 domino. Not that speed matters. The Domino generally does Y/Z, but one can elongate the slot to provide only Z alignment. Strength wise the dowels and dominos can be strong. You get more glue area with a domino as a circle is the least amount of outside surface to cross sectional area. But what fails? The tenon, or the the glue joint? (I dunno) The biscuit gives you lots of glue-area/cross-sectional-area. If I was doing sheets, I would suggest that you be looking at a biscuit system. For 32-mm hole patterns the DD40 seem optimal. I got the Domino for gates and doors, but think maybe I should have looked harder at the DD40. For some easier smaller version of TF, then you probably want the Domino or the DD40 rather than a biscuit. Or some WD40 and a hammer.  |
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Post by Red on Sept 22, 2015 1:25:21 GMT -5
As I mentioned in the original post, I've been finishing M&T joinery cut into heavy timbers with hand tools (for the most part) since I was a kid on the farm. Consequently, I seem to have lost touch with certain methods of joinery. I recall seeing a TV show many years ago -- Nahm's New Yankee Workshop, perhaps -- where a Porter biscuit joiner was being demonstrated ... so I guess that's what stuck in the back of my mind.
I've been doing a little reading and it seems that Lamello was the blueprint for all the plate joiners that followed, so I'm going to do more reading up on the Lamello brand before I actually buy anything else. As we need to fabricate panels that are fairly substantial, however, I may end up back with the domino-based system and, yes, Charley1968, you taught me more than one thing I didn't know.
Regardless, thanks to everyone for setting me straight on this subject.
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Post by Red on Sept 23, 2015 4:08:24 GMT -5
Red - The DD40 will do dowel holes. I think up to 16-mm which is a bit bigger than 5/8" Strength wise the dowels and dominos can be strong. You get more glue area with a domino as a circle is the least amount of outside surface to cross sectional area. But what fails? The tenon, or the the glue joint? (I dunno) The biscuit gives you lots of glue-area/cross-sectional-area. If I was doing sheets, I would suggest that you be looking at a biscuit system. For 32-mm hole patterns the DD40 seem optimal. I got the Domino for gates and doors, but think maybe I should have looked harder at the DD40. For some easier smaller version of TF, then you probably want the Domino or the DD40 rather than a biscuit. Or some WD40 and a hammer.
I've come to the conclusion that there's a definite distinction between a biscuit joiner and the type of system we need, so the "biscuit" tools are probably out. Your words seem to indicate that the joinery obtained via the DD40 system's larger bits and dowels are comparable to those one can obtain via the Domino XL DF 700 system. When you get a few minutes, please elaborate on what you see as the differences between the DD40 and the XL DF 700 systems, placing emphasis on which you see as providing the strongest and most stable joinery.
Have a good one,
Red
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Post by holmz on Sept 23, 2015 7:20:33 GMT -5
I am no expert.
If I was doing 32-mm holes then the DD40 seems unbeatable. Like for peg holes to hold shelves in a cabinet.
From what it sounds like you are doing the Domino sounds like it is the best though.
The dominos are ofter slotted in one side to ensue that they fit is the marks are 'off'.
However with the DD40 it seems harder for the marks to be off.
So the DD40 would certainly work and it is probably easier to get the holes to line up with the accessory rail.
Youtube some DD40 and Domino.
I suspect either would work fine, but I think you probably want the Domino700.
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Post by Red on Sept 23, 2015 15:22:25 GMT -5
I am no expert. If I was doing 32-mm holes then the DD40 seems unbeatable. Like for peg holes to hold shelves in a cabinet. From what it sounds like you are doing the Domino sounds like it is the best though. The dominos are ofter slotted in one side to ensue that they fit is the marks are 'off'. However with the DD40 it seems harder for the marks to be off. So the DD40 would certainly work and it is probably easier to get the holes to line up with the accessory rail. Youtube some DD40 and Domino. I suspect either would work fine, but I think you probably want the Domino700. |
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Post by holmz on Sept 23, 2015 15:38:14 GMT -5
Your evening and my morning align.
If I had both I would be more help.
And have not done a lot of mortices with the Domino.
25 years ago I built 3 oak doors for inside the house.
The rails and styles were routed with a big router on a table.
I have 3 screws on each side where I drilled in 25-mm Forstner as far as it would go, then a ~3/8" bit through the vertical and a 1/4" into the threaded side.
They were glued and screwed, and I sued furry 25-mm oak doweling. so they were tight int the holes, and required pounding in.
I have no idea if they will come apart, and one has a glue-chip glass panel which is 1/2 missing.
For some reason I also think I make have used a dowel for alignment as I recall thinking I did not even need glue.
If you have a lathe then you have dowels.
The Dominos are not cheap, but neither is time.
Again I am at my limit of things.
There is nothing wrong with my DX700.
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Post by Red on Sept 25, 2015 3:06:47 GMT -5
....If you have a lathe then you have dowels. The Dominos are not cheap, but neither is time. Again I am at my limit of things. There is nothing wrong with my DX700.
but I have a close friend who owns several types...so when push comes to shove, round
dowels will be much easier to acquire than oblong [read: manufactured] dominos.
As for the Domino XL DF 700 system I was recently quoted on, there is one problem with
it: it's stupidly expensive, which, quite honestly, was the reason for this thread in the first
place...hmmmmm, I think it's time for a quote on the Mafell DD40P (1 KW version).
As I've clearly learned a great deal about this type of tool technology, via this thread, any
additional thoughts would be greatly appreciated. |
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Post by holmz on Sept 25, 2015 5:47:32 GMT -5
I think you got it.
If you have dowels then the DD40 seems like it is worthwhile.
It is like an auger and brace.
The DX-#00 requires Dominos, so you trade money for time.
The dominos are not cheap.
Two good decisions.
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