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Post by GhostFist on Sept 9, 2015 15:45:00 GMT -5
Thou art the Dust Master.
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Post by rizzoa13 on Sept 9, 2015 17:01:24 GMT -5
Watching your video i wonder if you could make a hole at the front nose of the dust shroud to get some auction of there when the blade exits the wood. The dust goes mostly up and having suction there would get some of it. Even besterer would be some type of articulating nozzle that protrudes forward some and would fall off the board before the blade exits and then have suction right at the edge of the board.
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Post by jonathan on Sept 10, 2015 10:36:50 GMT -5
Well continuing my obsession with dust collection, today I recieved a Bosch GAS 35L SFC (the entry model) to dedicate to the Erika. Up until now I had a Protool (Festool) VCP-26-E-L-AC connected. And althougIh I've only done a single quick test I can already tell I get better collection with the Bosch.
Once I've found some more time I'll try and do a more detailled write-up, but for now, it's looking pretty good.
Bosch GAS 35
Protool VCP 260
Apparantly, as is clearly visible in this video setup, I did not get rid of the dust plume at the riving knife as much as I thought. In any case the video does prove what I thought when doing the cuts, the Bosch does a noticeably better job than the Protool.
In both videos the vacuum was connected to the provided Y-splitter with a 1m long 50mm hose.
And to close it off 2 screengrabs side by side:
(Click to enlarge)
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Post by jm on Sept 10, 2015 18:43:39 GMT -5
Wow, that is a pretty big difference.
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Post by thedude306 on Sept 10, 2015 20:56:38 GMT -5
GReat video and that sure shows how important your extractor is!
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Post by holmz on Sept 11, 2015 2:09:51 GMT -5
It also shows somewhat of a design flaw. Ideally the dust would FRO out the port. That replies on detaching the dust from the blade where the rooster tail of dust is emanating. It either needs a mechanical means, or a blast of as they do on the p1cc... Or something else. Maybe a windage tray around the blade?
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Post by jonathan on Sept 11, 2015 2:38:12 GMT -5
I totaly agrtee holmz, they could have done a better job designing the 85 blade shroud for sure!
I've been thinking about it a lot for the past week and do realise it isn't easy to collect the dust from a moving saw head such as the Erika. Also since you need to take into account the tilt of the blade. But they could and should have thought of some kind of solution on the inside of the shroud to prevent all that dust being blown out again.
For example, when I feel with a wet finger at the front of the shroud where the blade enters the wood, I can't feel any suction with the Protool. I feel a little with the Bosch. Same goes for the blade guard on top, very little suction there with the Protool, a bit better with the Bosch.
Also, closing off the hole in the shroud in front of the blade change arbor with masking tape helps to preserve more airflow to reach the front of the shroud. Designing a more sealed off shroud would surely have been possible with some kind of door. Even a removable plastic cap to cover the hole would help.
I also haven't been able to figure out why there are all those slots in the front of the shroud of the 85 are for? I'll be focussing there next to see how I can improve collection there.
Overall though, it's not as bad as it might seem. Using the Erika without dust collection sprays a ton of dust out of the rear port! I think it might look worse than it is because were focussing on it now with these videos. But the dust plume at the riving knife shouldn't be there that's for sure.
Also I had some doubts about the last video I posted with the Protool VCP 260 last night. So I just re-did the test, checking if there weren't any of the bristles of the little riving knife modification I made that were bent or not in place. But even after checking that and everything else, the results remain the same. The Bosch performs much better.
I'll be uploading the new videos in an hour or so.
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Post by holmz on Sept 11, 2015 3:22:47 GMT -5
Well if the shroud rotated with the blade it would be too easy.
Engines use windage trays as the oil on the crank looks like a cotton candy machine. The sawdust is a bit different, but the idea of using a scraper would would if the blade was not moving relative to the shroud.
I am leaning towards getting that 85.
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Post by jonathan on Sept 11, 2015 7:44:01 GMT -5
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Post by jonathan on Sept 11, 2015 8:24:52 GMT -5
As I said before, I do believe the Erika dust collection benefits from 2 dust extractors. 1 dedicated to the cabinet and 1 dedicated to the blade guard.
Here's a video of the collection with the Bosch GAS 35 connected to the cabinet with a 1m long 36mm hose and the Protool VCP 260 connected to the blade guard with a 4m long 36mm hose.
This setup gets practically everything, except for a little that gets thrown out at the end of the cut when the sawblade breaks through the wood.
I forgot to film the table top at the end of the video, so I'll likely revisited the video on monday. For now you'll just have to take my word for it.
A single Festool vac is not going to cut it. The Bosch... borderline adequate. I don't know how Mafell's own extractor or the other Starmix vacuuums perform as I don't own any of those. I do think the extraction isn't linear, the Bosch vac isn't 2-3 times more powerful than the Protool/Festool, but it does get about 2-3 times more dust. Anything with 253 mbar and 153 CFM should give results like the Bosch. The only 2 vacuums with those specs that I know of today are the Bosch GAS range (and Karcher who makes the vacs for Bosch) and the new Fein Turbo/Dustex vacuums.
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Post by skinee on Sept 14, 2015 15:40:41 GMT -5
thankyou for the videos jonathan, your idea certainly seems to cut down on escaping dust considerably,may I ask why you chose the bosch gas 35 as opposed to a starmix vac for example?
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Post by jonathan on Sept 14, 2015 17:07:15 GMT -5
Closing the gap behind the riving knife definitely does help but it doesn't completely eliminate dust shooting out there.
Anyway, there's a Dutch institute or company called TNO that does their own kind of dust tests on power tools and rate them according their own worked out rating system and what Dutch law prescribes. I put all the data I could find both there and elsewhere on the internet into an Excel spreadsheet and made some basic calculations. This gave me a rough idea about how the vacuums perform.
I also looked up as many videos on youtube as I could possibly find and read whatever I could find on various message boards.
The deciding factors in the end were that 2 vacuums stood out in the numbers: the Starmix and Bosch. The cheapest variant of the Bosch range is about €150 cheaper than the Starmix.
And what really made me go for the Bosch was a russian (I think) video from a Mafell tool fair demo where I could clearly see a lot of dust being blown out at the riving knife, which so happens, is exactly what I saw in my test cuts with my Protool/Festool vacuums. So that made me not go for the Starmix right there.
Since the test numbers clearly show that the Starmix has the best filter cleaning system and the largest filter surface (hence why it maintains suction the best of all the vacuums), I concluded, the suction itself isn't the strongest. When I look at the pure suction numbers, the Bosch scores higher.
I'm dedicating the vacuum to the Erika and don't need filter cleaning. So that's why I tried the Bosch and I'm happy with my choice. I think it was the right one. I clearly get a lot more dust with the Bosch than I do with the Protool/Festool and clearly more than what I saw in the youtube video with Mafell's own (Starmix) vacuum.
My non scientific personal conclusion is the Bosch has the strongest suction and moves the most air. I think it's the best choice for wood dust. The Starmix has a much larger filter surface and the best filter cleaning system. I think that one is the best choice for cement and drywall dust that makes the other vacuums choke.
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Post by holmz on Sept 14, 2015 21:55:00 GMT -5
My scientific conclusion (based upon the airflow numbers) is that the Airbo is the one to pick .
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Post by jonathan on Sept 15, 2015 1:41:37 GMT -5
Ah yes, I forgot about the Airbo (Numatic really). Problem with the Airbo is it doesn't have a plug socket for an autostart function and draws 2400 Watts as it's a twin motor vac. It's also over €1000. You can buy 3 of the Bosch vacs for that money. So I'd opt for 2 Bosch vacs and combine the airflow of those over the single Airbo/Numatic. Will result in more airflow and larger filter surface and capacity as well, but will likely still need to run the 2nd vac on a different breaker.
Yeah, the perfect solution isn't there yet it seems. In all seriousness though, they're all pretty good vacs. It's just I like the Bosch best for now in performance. And if you go for the entry model, it's also the cheapest. Go figure.
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Post by holmz on Sept 15, 2015 1:53:54 GMT -5
That makes sense.
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