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Post by muuiska on Oct 16, 2014 17:34:24 GMT -5
After a great deal of investigation and reading of just about every media review and Forum post, I eventually decided on both the K85 Ec L-Max and the LO 65 Ec MaxiMax. Just received delivery with all the standard accessories in the Max containers, and I must say that I have not been disappointed. Powerful, robust, accurate, and easy to operate. This thread is under the head K85 Ec, so I'll keep my comments to that machine in this post. I hope my brief initial comments are if some assistance to others in making the best choice for their particular needs.
Only four minor 'gripes': 1) The base of the K85 Ec.......it moves about 1 mm forwards and backwards even when everything is locked down in position. Left unadjusted, it would mean that when endeavouring to 'plunge' accurately to a start point, unless one is careful, the plunge point may be missed.
Now I realise that not everyone will require a need for total accuracy, but for those who do, or for those who are perfectionists, an adjustment of the base plate hinge/pivot arm alignment screws will be necessary. Thankfully, Mafell has left these screws easily accessible on the underside of the baseplate, but frankly there is very little adjustment potential.
That said, in my view Mafell could have so easily designed the base plate hinge/pivot arms so as to contain some sort washer (polyethylene or some such material) to accommodate this movement, rather than seeking to rely on any user adjustment and the consequential potential problem of direct (rubbing) contact between hinge/pivot arm and saw body metal.............far better in my mind to 'wear out' a replaceable washer than the no doubt more expensive pivot arms.
2) The dust extractor connection port.......I was expecting the K 85 Ec dust extract port to fit my Festool 36 mm internal dia.,extractor hose. The K 85 Ec hose connector dia., is quoted in the Mafell specifications as being 35 mm.........it is indeed just so, but that is the internal dia., of the connector not the external dia. The external dia., is actually about 39 mm with another 1 mm of external lipping all round, thus totalling 41 mm.
My Festool 36 mm internal dia., extractor hose has a rubber end which has an internal dia., of about 38 mm and an external dia., of about 43 mm, so you can see that the two are not readily compatible. However, with some hard pushing and twisting I can get the Festool extractor hose-end to stretch over the 41 mm dia., K 85 Ec connector............not sure whether in the long term this will cause unwanted permanent enlargement of the Festool hose-end resulting in problems with connections to other equipment..........time will tell I guess.
I could use my Festool 27 mm internal dia., extractor hose.......but that too has it's problems. The rubber end is about 25 mm internal dia., and about 35 mm external dia., at it's tip and widening to about 38 mm external dia., at it's base. So you can see that it too requires hard pushing and twisting to compress it into the K85 Ec hose connector. Moreover of course, the resultant loss of cross-sectional area of extract at the outlet from 35 mm down to less than 25 mm, has a noticeable effect on effective extraction.
To be fair to Mafell, perhaps it is I who should have researched the dust extraction port size and fittings more thoroughly, rather than making the assumption that standard sizes would fit.
3) Is the Velcro strapping around the K85 Ec hose extractor port really necessary?........I confess that I am somewhat unclear as to it's intended use. I seem to recall reading somewhere that it is intended to offer a method of securing the power lead to the dust extraction hose. If that is correct, then you can see from item 2) above that it would only be able to do it's job if the extraction hose-end is fitted inside the extractor port............and you're back to the loss in effective extraction once again.......this would be the case no matter which manufacturers extraction system one chooses to use. If one uses an external hose-end fitting the Velcro is redundant, indeed in such circumstances it hinders the fitting of the hose-end.
4) The max blade dia., is 237 mm.........I'd like to see Mafell produce a slightly greater range of blades in that dia. They currently only produce 3, all carbide tipped; 12 teeth, 24 teeth, and 56 teeth.
There ya go, only minor 'gripes'. On balance I do like this machine a lot. Most of the well know issues of previous generations of circular plunge saws generally, are addressed beautifully in the K85 Ec. For example, issues concerning bevel cut pivot point adjustment (particularly when using guide rails); lack of power when deep cutting hardwoods; complex blade change; plunge / riving knife operation; etc., etc.
The K85 Ec seems to work like a dream on the Mafell Guide Rail system; moves smoothly and as solid as a rock, providing confidence is use. The smooth start yet powerful Cuprex motor reduces any start-up movement of the machine to virtually zero, as well as the normal hand-arm vibration in use. All the necessary depth / angle markings are bold and clear, and all the associated locking mechanisms secure the chosen markings in place (save for minor 'gripe' item 1) above) accurately before and during use.
I'm really looking forward to using and getting to know this beauty as time goes by!
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Post by GhostFist on Oct 16, 2014 17:51:09 GMT -5
I can't thank you enough for this write up. Your gripes seem valid and these are details that are unknown to us as next to no one on the forum has this saw. I'm sure they will help others who may be considering this tool.
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Oct 17, 2014 1:23:45 GMT -5
Nice review there. Now just need to give review on the router
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Post by MrToolJunkie on Oct 17, 2014 21:23:08 GMT -5
Awesome review! So, I have to ask - why did you opt for this saw over the KSS version? I am on the fence and have been for a month or so now on which direction to go. I thought that Festool hoses fit - I know that Woodie's video on You Tube specifically stated that the big hose fit on the outside diameter and the smaller hose fit inside -- is it just a tight fit or would it be better to get the Mafell hose? Can you explain more what you mean on the moving base plate?
Thanks!
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Oct 18, 2014 1:31:00 GMT -5
Both the 27 and 35mm hoses use the same size connections to the machines. Mafell where properly only thinking of their own hoses, when designing the dust ports
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Post by MrToolJunkie on Oct 18, 2014 19:05:18 GMT -5
In the catalog Mafell states that the 27mm hose is the recommended one for the machine. If you did this, then the velcro would make sense to attach the cord. Not sure how useful that would really be or not.
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Post by muuiska on Oct 21, 2014 20:12:00 GMT -5
Thanks All.
To answer MrToolJunkie's questions......
Regarding my particular choice: I too considered both the K85 Ec L-Max and the KSS 80 Ec/370. Both machines have exactly the same specification, save for the fact that the KSS 80 Ec can be fixed to and used with it's own 370 Cross-Cut Guide Rail, and can also be detached therefrom and used with the Guide Rail F system or just on its own. The K85 Ec, however, can only be used with the Guide Rail F system or just on it's own..........it is not interchangeable with the 370 Cross-Cut Guide Rail.
The KSS 80 Ec/370 is ideal for users who are cross or rip cutting short widths or short lengths time and time again, day-in day-out. Lifting the machine single handed from one piece of material to the next with the 370 Guide Rail attached is a dream time-saver particularly, though not exclusively, if the cuts are required to be at the same angles.......pre-setting the angle stops on the 370 Guide Rail allows the machine and attached Guide Rail to be quickly and easily placed against your cutting mark on the material to be cut, and it's good-to-go each time. The "370" in the product title refers to the maximum length of cut at full depth with the Guide Rail attached...........shallower cuts will enable progressively longer cuts, but only up to the overall length of the 370 Guide Rail itself, which will provide a maximum cut length of approx., 450 mm, or thereabouts as I seem to recall.
If 'time is not of the essence', then the K85 Ec can perform exactly the same cuts to exactly the same angles and tolerances (it's the same basic machine after all)..........the Angle Fence F-WA accessory is required to do so of course. This takes but a few extra seconds per cut in order to set the K85 Ec upon the Angle Fence F-WA Guide Rail, but the option now exists to also attach additional lengths of the Guide Rail F system so as to complete much longer cuts.........still all straight and true I might add. The KSS 80 Ec/370 is about 15% more expensive than the K85 Ec L-Max, and it is only supplied in a cardboard box rather than the heavy duty L-Max case.
In my particular circumstances, there were, in summary, several reasons why I opted for the K85 Ec L-Max over the KSS 80 Ec/370: 1) I will not need to cross or rip cutting short widths or short lengths time and time again........some days yes, but more often not; 2) whilst time is precious to me (as it is no doubt to us all), I seldom find myself that 'hard pressed'; 3) I already own various lengths of the Guide Rail F system, and the Angle Fence F-WA; 4) the added protection which the L-Max case provides is an absolute bonus when transporting the machine from place to place (it contains slots for the Parallel Guide Fence, the Roller Edge Guide, and additional Blades); and therefore 5) the additional 15% on-cost was not justifiable.
Regarding the Festool Extract Hoses: Yes, they do just about fit, and once in place, all is fine...........but I have found them to be extremely tight!! Whilst the Mafell hoses are of course designed specifically with Mafell machines in mind, the Festool hoses can be used, and in my opinion, in the final analysis I would not be overly worried if you decide to go down that route.
With some hard pushing and twisting the 36 mm internal dia., hose end will indeed fit over the outside of the dust extract connector / port on the machine, but be aware that having got the hose end over the lip of the connector / port, it is still hindered even more so by the Velcro strapping which Mafell has attached to the outside of the dust extract connector / port...........the Velcro strapping can easily be removed if one wishes, so that would help a little.
Also with some hard pushing and twisting, the 27 mm internal dia., hose end will indeed fit into the inside of the dust extract connector / port on the machine..........but the resultant loss of cross-sectional area of extract at the outlet from 35 mm down to less than 25 mm, in my opinion does have a noticeable effect on effective extraction.......... notwithstanding the fact that Mafell specifies a 27 mm dia., hose.
Whilst slightly more cumbersome, I have nevertheless found the 36 mm internal dia., hose to be my preference in a majority of instances, but do remember to correctly adjust the flow rate to hose dia., settings on your dust extractor (if your dust extractor has that facility).
Regarding the moving Base Plate: In order for the machine to perform bevel cuts, the Base Plate has to be able to be secured at the required angle relative to the body of the machine. This is beautifully and smoothly achieved on the K85 Ec by simply lifting a single lever, aligning the required bevel angle (clearly marked on the larger of the front hinge/pivot arms) with a red pointer, and then pressing the lever back down to secure the angle of the Base Plate. The angle of the Base Plate is thus held firmly in place.
There is, however, a small amount of forward and backward movement or 'play' (about 1 mm to 2 mm in my case) of the Base Plate, but I would emphasise NOT in the angle itself which I have found to remain 'spot on'. This movement is due to the space which exists between the face of the hinge/pivot arms and the faces of the connection points to Base Plate and the body of the machine. There are four hinge/pivot arms in total; two large (one at either side of the body of the machine) and two small (one at the front of the Base Plate and one at the rear of the Base Plate). Each of the hinge/pivot arms is connected to it's respective pivot point with a steel pin.
The space which exists at each of those four locations is small, and to have accommodated such movement by including some sort of washer (polypropylene or similar) would have made the bevel angle adjustment tighter, but it would nevertheless have prevented any forwards and backwards movement of the Base Plate. It would also have meant that any user adjustment to the hinge/pivot arm alignment screws located at the front and the rear of the machine (in a recess on the underside of the Base Plate) would not be necessary.
When plunge cutting, unless one is slow and careful, as the body of the machine drops down into the plunge cut and the blade bites, there is an inherent tendency for the body of the machine to want to move relative to the Base Plate. This tendancy is repelled by the connection mechanism used to secure the Base Plate to the body of the machine........in this case the hinge/pivot arms and steel connection pins.................this is the same with most other plunge saws.........it is the nature of the beast. If the Base Plate is allowed to move relative to the body of the machine, the point of entry of the blade may also move by the same corresponding amount.
This is, of course, only important for those requiring a need for spot on accuracy when plunge cutting, or for those who are perfectionists.
I hope these explanations provide some additional clarity to my original post. In any event, I feel sure you will be pleased MrToolJunkie whatever your final decision............the 'gripes' I have mentioned are minor after all.
One footnote: I have recently decided to sever the power cables to each of my portable machines at about 400 mm from each machine, and insert "Neutrik powerCON True1 NAC3MX-W (male) and NAC3FX-W (female)" connectors. These are twist-locking, waterproof (IP65 rated), 16 A (20 A in USA), single phase connectors. They are each about the size of an average male thumb, and make transporting and packing each machine so much more convenient........also, only one long power cable to transport and pack! These connectors are designed safely such that if required, the power cable can remain in the power socket whilst the machine is simply disconnected using the twist-lock mechanism of the connectors, and then another machine connected in it's place. However, always remember of course to ensure that the power rating of the long power cable being used is sufficient for the machine being connected to it.
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Post by MrToolJunkie on Oct 21, 2014 22:44:18 GMT -5
Wow, muuiska -- this is one of the most thorough and in-depth replies I have ever received on a forum - thank you for your thoughts and insight! Lots of great information, here.
One other question - do you find the saw to be heavy and cumbersome for daily use? It is only a few pounds heavier than my TS75, which is manageable, but I do notice the weight after a long day of cutting. I have heard that the machine is well balanced and so it might be a non-issue. I have Festool's OF2200 router and while this weighs 18 or 19 pounds (heavier than the K85/KSS80), I really do not notice the weight of it because of the ergonomics and smoothness of the machine. SO, just curious what your thoughts have been so far.
Thanks again for such an in-depth reply.
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Post by GhostFist on Oct 22, 2014 4:32:13 GMT -5
Again, just thanking muuiska for taking the time to write his thoughts here. It's sure to be of great help to those of us interested in this tool
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Post by jalvis on Oct 22, 2014 10:41:59 GMT -5
All this information is very helpful and needed on this site. Thank you for the well considered contribution.
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Oct 22, 2014 11:36:22 GMT -5
Yeah nice review again and also good points of choosing over the kss version. It really comes down to the type of work you mainly do and how often
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Post by muuiska on Oct 22, 2014 16:22:53 GMT -5
MrToolJunkie raises a very good question.........is the K85 Ec too heavy and / or too cumbersome for everyday use?
Nope, in my opinion not at all..........but that is of course very much dependent upon individual circumstances.
Weighing in at 7.3 Kg (16 lb 1.5 oz) excluding the power cable, granted it is some 1.1 kg (2 lb 7 oz) heavier that the Festool TS 75, but it is 0.3 kg (10.6 oz) lighter than the Makita 5093RK. Saws at this sort of size and power (and in this example, neither the Festool nor the Makita compete on the power front) are all broadly similar in weight, give or take a bit. It is certainly a truism that no matter which manufacturer, a well designed portable machine will always minimise any potential disadvantages which may exist as a result of it's size, power, weight, etc.
That said, I will always endeavour to programme my work so as to minimise any potential for wasted effort........but I feel sure everyone will agree, life isn't always that kind or indeed that simple!!
With respect to tiredness and general strain, some of the more important factors which I will consider in relation to my everyday use of any portable machine are, amongst other things, general ergonomics and design details, balance when handling, balance and smoothness when in operation, application of power, noise, and accuracy. On these points, I rate the K85 Ec L-Max very highly.
The machine is a pleasure to hold.........the ergonomics, and the balance in the hand and in use are about perfect. Just to give you some idea, by way of demonstration: a) when encircling the handle of the machine at it's highest point with only my thumb and forefinger and then letting it hang, the Base Plate of the machine aligns horizontally with the ground. Therefore, when using a conventional working grip, moving around and placing the machine smoothly and accurately directly upon a work piece, or upon one of the Guide Rails, time after time, seems almost effortless; b) set at full pre-plunge height, in bevel ready, pre-cutting position, free standing and resting on a smooth horizontal work piece, the machine will reach it's tipping point at about 37 deg. (set on a Guide Rail this angle would be even greater). c) set at full plunge depth, in bevel ready pre-cutting position, free standing and resting on the edge of a smooth horizontal work piece, the machine will reach it's tipping point at about 25 deg. (this is for demonstration purposes only, in this setting the machine would approach the work piece from the front of course);
As I mentioned previously, the smooth start Cuprex motor, with electronic control ("Ec"), is a dream, and keeps any vibration to a barely perceptible absolute minimum.........it's a little more quiet than I was expecting too. Pretty much all of the mechanisms for control and adjustment have been well considered, well designed, and are within easy reach during set-up and operation.
A few extra statistics which some may find useful: i) the machine and Blade actually weighs in at 7.45 kg including a 400 mm length of power cable a one "Neutrik powerCON NAC3MX-W" connector. ii) the robust L-Max container weighs in at 6.26 kg, (including the Parallel Guide Fence, the Roller Edge Guide, and 2 additional Blades); iii) the size of the L-Max container, measured at the greatest protrusions in each instance, is 355 mm (14 in) wide (front to back) x 440 mm (17.3 in) long (side to side) x 390 mm (15.4 in) high (top to bottom).
I hope this helps.
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Post by GhostFist on Oct 22, 2014 17:19:36 GMT -5
That balance tidbit is amazing! It's little details like these that make my mafell tools a joy to use. Another outstanding post with information given you rarely see in any review. I applaud you once again sir.
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Post by MrToolJunkie on Oct 22, 2014 18:59:32 GMT -5
Yes -- some more great insights! Thank you for posting more thoughts. Good stuff!
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Post by MrToolJunkie on Nov 5, 2014 20:06:44 GMT -5
Well I am heavily leaning toward the K85 for many of the reasons muuiska sites. I have not fully decided and keep going back and forth. At least it is narrowed to one saw now as opposed to comparing to other KSS saws, LOL.
Does the angle guide have any positive stops? I think I found some picture that looked like it might have a positive stop at 90 degrees, but could not confirm.
Thanks!
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