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Post by rizzoa13 on Oct 1, 2017 19:18:41 GMT -5
What else is Mafell doing to the Metabo besides cosmetics and torque settings to warrant my interest & money? Just bid a job requiring 1,152 3/16” (4.8mm) holes in stucco (24 at a time) and my trusty ‘corded’ baby hammer drill is not suited to the circumstances. A light weight cordless is called for. Factored in a pro-sumer box store cordless 18v hammer drill into the bid price as a disposable option but it’s also time for me to upgrade my cordless drill anyways (still can’t kill my old Panasonic and it does everything I need except hammer-drill). Performance tests alone shouldn’t be the deciding factor, build quality often goes a longer way to user satisfaction etc. as does ergonomics etc. So I went out and demo’ed a few of the ‘common’ brands and was shocked at how heavy the 5&6 Amp Hours batts were and how poorly balanced most felt as well as how bad the grips were. Though I suppose with 18650s I can get away with using smaller AmpHour packs for weight. I’m also used to switching from reverse to forward with the base of my index finger while still holding grip, yet when I tried this with many models it just parked the gears in neutral requiring you to push the slide switch the rest of the way with a pointed finger (other side works fine with thumb of course). That might sound picky but that’s key to changing bits on a keyless chuck faster & easier than using a quick bit holder (when drill-bits are also involved). Might not be the right time to buy. [ I highly, HIGHLY suggest getting an sds rotary hammer drill over the hammer drills for this application. I've burnt out my Metabo equivalent twice. Once drilling 2 1/2" hole saw holes in 1/2" steel (I deserved it 🤣) and once hammer drilling in some really hard concrete. After that I bought the Metabo 2x 18v that makes 36v cordless hammer drill and it's been amazing. I feel like a real asshole having drilled so much concrete and stucco without it. For your application the Metabo KHA 18 single battery sds hammer drill would be a perfect compromise of weight and power plus it'll drill those holes in a fraction of the time and won't destroy your eyes in the meantime.
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 1, 2017 21:11:23 GMT -5
I'll say it right at the outset: I hate hammer drills. With a passion. Whether corded or cordless, the (relatively) weak, inefficient hammer mechanism adds unnecessary weight, complexity, expense & the potential for inaccuracy to an otherwise good drill. It consists of two corrugated steel discs to excite or introduce impact shocks into the drills' drivetrain. One fixed, one rotating. Therein lies the the root of my fear & loathing: to operate with any meaningful form of efficiency, the drill must be rotating fast, inducing a god-awful, piercing, ear splitting (literally) industrial deafness inducing scream to proceedings. Plus the process is slow, and the heat induced with such rapid rotational friction plays merry hell with one's bit life too.
Okay. Hammer drills WILL do the job, but the experience is just so tiring, inefficient & slow, not to mention damaging to one's overall health due to both noise & dust blowback from the holes that I'd liken it to a masonry equivalent of chainsaw milling in my list of all time most detested tasks.
Get a baby SDS hammer, preferably with either integrated (albeit expensive) or much cheaper accessory "Bohrfixx" type dust extraction.. It will bore holes in the very hardest of masonry or stone in a mere fraction of the time. They run slower, make much less noise, which is of a much less damaging lower sonic frequency & bit life is extended exponentially.
36v hammers are def more capable in the 12-20mm class, but are way too long, big & heavy for the small stuff. Realistically, unless there's a complete absence of mains power available, a mains equivalent tool (my personal fave being the Bosch GBH4-32 VF with interchangeable SDS & keyless chucks) will comprehensively outdrill, chisel & in just about every other way outclass the 36v alternatives. It has the best chiselling & chasing performance of any SDS+ tool that I've ever used; something that any cordless tool - even 36v versions - will always struggle with. I personally consider my own 36v SDS hammer to be one of my least useful SDS tools. It only ever sees the light of day when there's no viable alternative (i e mains) available. Other 36v versions that I've seen & used over the years haven't diminished this impression.
Some years ago I had to spend some 18 months on a complete strip out & Reno of 7 blocks of 3 storey student accommodation units. This involved surface mounting, throughboring, & chasing in super hard 70s vintage structural concrete brick & slabs. Surface mounting was done with 5mm Hilti plugs. Some 30,000 odd. I ended up using a range of SDS & Max hammers; after trying a hammer drill (which I put up with until the first lunch break) I ended up trying & using a selection of 12 different hammers, before sorting out my priorities over the first block & settling on 3 tools for all my variety of drilling, boring & chasing tasks.
I ended up trialling Makita, Milwaukee, Metabo & Bosch Cordless, Kango/Milwaukee, Hilti, Metabo & Bosch SDS+ & Metabo/Milwaukee, Hilti & DeWalt Max hammers. Each tool had a particular drilling "range" of min & max sizes of bit that it will drill, plus a much narrower range of its "sweet spot" where the tool's size, weight, speed & impact power makes itself clearly evident.
For 5mm plugs it was the Bosch 18 v GBH 18 V-EC that was not just the outstanding performer, but the definitive workhorse. Unquestionably head & shoulders above all others, even it's Bosch siblings. It's shorter form factor, balance & effortless boring made it (for me anyway) THE ideal 5-8 or maybe 10mm borer. Having a brushless motor meant long charge life in continuous intensive use. It's light weight, botton midships battery mount allowed superior balance & safe one handed operation at full stretch or hanging off a ladder. It's combination of light weight & power made it easily the most efficient borer of smaller mounting holes. It's rated for 4-18mm holes, but realistically requires more punch for holes >12mm/half inch. Likewise, it's a poor performer for chiselling too (as are all but the very biggest of battery hammers). But it has the essential "no hammer" function for when soft substrates require gentle boring (to eliminate inadvertent hole enlargement), such as my old convict brick house.
Other people might have other favourites, but in my opinion this single tool makes an almost perfect small hole boring machine in even the hardest of surfaces. That near ideal combination of light weight, balance, ergonomics, not too little & not too much punch & power & like Metabo, Mafell, Collomix etc. the very latest Li-HD ("Core" in Bosch-speak) 6.3ah batter tech makes it the definitive choice.
Interestingly, I've found that Bosch hammers are consistently best performers in each & every class or size of SDS & Max hammers that I've ever used (better even than Hilti in fact). Without any shadow of doubt it is quite clear to me that Bosch are to industrial hammers as Metabo is to grinders or Mafell to saws: consistently "best in class". Nothing else even comes close.
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Post by kraftt on Oct 2, 2017 1:29:08 GMT -5
Great replies rizzoa13 & huntsgemin - thank you. Glad I posted, I knew something wasn’t right and need to reconsider.
I agree with your take on the Bosch hammers huntsgemin, there is a difference. Besides the corded baby hammer (old milwaukee magnum keyless) I have an older Bosch mid sized as well as an even older midsized milwaukee ’spline’ drive. I keep the spline drive because I collected so many bits for it before sds came out.
The ‘rotary without hammering’ is a feature I have always wanted too.
I will scope out some of the small light cordless sds hammers you guys are recommending, I’ve never minded keeping the cordless drill driver and hammer separated. I just thought, after watching the videos, that for tiny 4.8mm (only 25.4mm deep ea.) holes in stucco that the little multipurpose drill/driver/hammers would be ideal but I see the point too of getting something properly built for the job by going dedicated. At least I know I won’t be disappointed with it.
I’m used to visually spotting or marking my center spot and allowing the drill to slightly walk at first while I bring it back dead center visualizing where obliterated original mark/spot was, then committing to finishing the hole. But these holes have to be dead accurate in relation to each other so I’ll be making either a steel or hardwood predrilled jig/template where it’s first fastened & leveled (using two of the needed holes) and then drilling the rest. I’ll be up high on ladders for most of it with no power anywhere, even at ground level, so weight/fatigue from repetition is a concern. (well more the annoying part of it is).
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 2, 2017 3:22:47 GMT -5
Make sure you use a lanyard. Not just for your colleagues' safety, but to ensure the drill survives the inevitable falls from the ladder. My Bosch has suffered copious falls, but usually only from 8' max. Any further, & you'll lose more than just a broken bit!
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Post by rizzoa13 on Oct 2, 2017 19:51:41 GMT -5
Great replies rizzoa13 & huntsgemin - thank you. Glad I posted, I knew something wasn’t right and need to reconsider. I agree with your take on the Bosch hammers huntsgemin, there is a difference. Besides the corded baby hammer (old milwaukee magnum keyless) I have an older Bosch mid sized as well as an even older midsized milwaukee ’spline’ drive. I keep the spline drive because I collected so many bits for it before sds came out. The ‘rotary without hammering’ is a feature I have always wanted too. I will scope out some of the small light cordless sds hammers you guys are recommending, I’ve never minded keeping the cordless drill driver and hammer separated. I just thought, after watching the videos, that for tiny 4.8mm (only 25.4mm deep ea.) holes in stucco that the little multipurpose drill/driver/hammers would be ideal but I see the point too of getting something properly built for the job by going dedicated. At least I know I won’t be disappointed with it. I’m used to visually spotting or marking my center spot and allowing the drill to slightly walk at first while I bring it back dead center visualizing where obliterated original mark/spot was, then committing to finishing the hole. But these holes have to be dead accurate in relation to each other so I’ll be making either a steel or hardwood predrilled jig/template where it’s first fastened & leveled (using two of the needed holes) and then drilling the rest. I’ll be up high on ladders for most of it with no power anywhere, even at ground level, so weight/fatigue from repetition is a concern. (well more the annoying part of it is). The real joy in using an sds hammer drill is that you are much less prone to drill bit wander when starting a hole. The bit will depress she. You put enough pressure on it and the first hard hit of the drill is usually enough to make a punch hole that you can easily follow. Even on slippery ceramic and porcelain tile I no longer pre-punch my hole when using an sds rotary type drill.
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Post by huntsgemein on Oct 3, 2017 1:17:46 GMT -5
I highly recommend Hilti's CX series bits for those smaller boreholes. They're just about the only ones (I think) that have a cruciform cutting head in the small sizes. The quad cutting edges bore truer & about 50% faster than standard bits.
In bigger sizes; say >12mm+ the benefit diminishes, as all the other better quality bits tend to be cruciform also. But in the crucial 5mm size that I was using (30,000 plug holes) the performance difference is immediately noticeable. Unique in fact.
They also last longer. I've never, ever actually worn one out! Instead the head tends to shear when it hits some steel reo or super-hard aggregate to the side of the hole. The first you know about it is that the drill simply stops drilling. Much better than ending up with an offset or skewed hole.
They cost more of course, but true quality seldom comes cheap. It would be a pity to match a fine mini hammer to cheap & nasty bits.
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Post by kraftt on Oct 23, 2017 17:12:16 GMT -5
uhg, after all that great advice…
They changed the spec on the hole size for the job down to 5/32”. That coupled with discovering I couldn’t hold the small Bosh cordless SDS drills up horizontal with one hand steady enough while holding large hole template (magnetized level attached) to start the first ‘holding’ hole. Let alone while hanging on to ladder drilling the rest - up on an extension meant that I was stuck with one of the drill driver combo mc-tools. (I’ll hold my 1-¾” rotary hammer with one hand all the time drilling down, and even briefly above my head but up on an extension ladder trying to hold a small, but long (adding bit), sds ‘horizontal’ over & over..)
Drilling such a tiny hole does fall into the wheelhouse of these compact hammer drill drivers without losing too much in time. Still with 24 consecutive holes per climb my arm is going to resemble a pro tennis player by the end and I’ll be deaf.
I picked up the red one because battery reviews and bpm speed tests were decent. But everything mentioned here was exactly right. Yes, in this case it’s a disposable tool but I was still hoping to be impressed going from a 20+ year old Panasonic 12v (that I love). It should be lightyears ahead but I can tell you right now this drill will go on eBay at the end of the job. It may not be fair to judge a combo hammer drill against a drill driver but my old drill has this confused angry tool beat is so many ways and that’s just sad.
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