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Post by alvychippy on Aug 26, 2020 17:42:59 GMT -5
For a melamine boards, I'd say most important thing is to clamp your guide and have a saw tight on a rail (adjust it so it's not slack)
Teeth on a blade 36-60, and any of Bosch(160 or 165)/ Mafell(162) or Key blades (162) will do the job just fine. My experience with Freud (great in general) but as it comes to chipboard/ cabinets etc - plunge saw- wasn't great at all.
Teeth configuration on chipboard almost don't matter either, I think kerf of 1.2m and 1.8mm teeth is most important/ crucial.
I'd say try few cuts with scoring and full cut 90° first, then get some masking tape for clear lines and try 45° joints just to play about using genuine 48t Mafell blade to get the feel for the saw.
I hate it, when few years ago, at a joinery shop, I got given measurements of 40mm sheets (2.4mx1.2) and sizes of products needed I had to learn what saw, how rail guide really works etc etc with TS75 and next veneered 18mm to trim up to the sizes with Mafell... So much to learn as ie on veneered (or melamine) cuts are ideal on one side only, that teeth number mattered little etc etc.
ANW, for a safe bet starting point, I'd say get KeyBlades combo 24t+48t for almost everything (or try to match 160mm Bosch to not to ruin splinter guard), get a cheapo Erbauer for them plastic "Trespa" or else they are called worktops ready for future, but until you get those delivered, Mafell blade will be good to start learning as how everything works. Plunge saw, it's near as big of a step as to learn to use properly as routing, coming from ordinary table/skill (circular) saws.
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 26, 2020 18:06:07 GMT -5
I wouldn't touch depth adjuster for using 160mm blades (just keep it in mind, when not having decent underlay sheet, whilst I personally allow at least 1mm over at least anyway) and
Yes 0.1mm further away from the splinter guard (Bosch instead of Mafell) will not make difference for splintering.
Honestly, look forward to hear how you'll get on with everything
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Post by mafellme on Aug 26, 2020 18:14:41 GMT -5
If you mean the general-usage Freud blades (as opposed to the more expensive premium variants) then yes, they're not perfect for fragile melamine or veneered panels unless you are super careful with pre-scoring. The main reason I attribute this to, I alluded to in an earlier post - it's not a lack of blade quality, it's (IMO) more the fact that their general usage blades have a 15-degree hook angle, whereas a very small (or zero) hook angle may yield better results.
I still use the general use Freud blades on generic formica kitchen worktops for the purpose of doing sink and hob cutouts (the cut line is overlapped by the sink edge and by the hob edge), and for cutting the worktops to length, because, even with a blade with a smaller hook angle, that's perfectly suited to Formica or Melamine, I generally still err on the side of caution, and cut within 1mm or so of the final measurment, and finish the last 1mm with a router.
If I was trying to save time, and I knew I had a really excellent blade for cutting Formica or melamine without chipping, then I might be tempted to risk cutting directly to the final measurement and skip the routing 'skim' cut. In this kind of scenario, I would not use a Freud LCL6M01064.
The thing is, as much as I like my MT55cc, I come from a bespoke furniture making background, and I do not view plunge saws as being ideal for 100% accurate final cuts. Admirably close, but not the best for final cuts on higher class projects. Of course, there's a lot of grey area in between general and high class usage, and it does come down to a case-by-case basis, and what condition the splinter guard and saw blade are in at any particular moment in time, etc., etc., etc.
I realise many MT55cc users have a different philosophy on how they use their saw.
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 26, 2020 18:40:02 GMT -5
Spot on! IE making hardwood lipping for shelves or making cabinet edging Mafell 48t isn't great, Freud much better. Still, I'd rather use plunge saw were appropriate and sander, instead of redoing it all with router. Sinks (on a regular 40mm melamine) makes sense as per you say, Belfast sinks (in wood-block worktop), I make a template with plunge saw, but do the cut with router... Same with Minerva/Trespa -plastic tops. Swings and roundabouts... ANW, OP is only starting, so initial concerns are sheet "breaking", making joints and trimming etc where too aggressive angle or too few of teeth number blades *AND too thin* Freud aren't great at all. For such I'd say get perfectly sized Trend CraftMaster blades, be them carbide simply weaker, than quality blades we talked about. Cheers, over and out for the night  |
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iban
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Post by iban on Aug 26, 2020 19:20:17 GMT -5
For a melamine boards, I'd say most important thing is to clamp your guide and have a saw tight on a rail (adjust it so it's not slack) Teeth on a blade 36-60, and any of Bosch(160 or 165)/ Mafell(162) or Key blades (162) will do the job just fine. My experience with Freud (great in general) but as it comes to chipboard/ cabinets etc - plunge saw- wasn't great at all. Teeth configuration on chipboard almost don't matter either, I think kerf of 1.2m and 1.8mm teeth is most important/ crucial. I'd say try few cuts with scoring and full cut 90° first, then get some masking tape for clear lines and try 45° joints just to play about using genuine 48t Mafell blade to get the feel for the saw. I hate it, when few years ago, at a joinery shop, I got given measurements of 40mm sheets (2.4mx1.2) and sizes of products needed I had to learn what saw, how rail guide really works etc etc with TS75 and next veneered 18mm to trim up to the sizes with Mafell... So much to learn as ie on veneered (or melamine) cuts are ideal on one side only, that teeth number mattered little etc etc. ANW, for a safe bet starting point, I'd say get KeyBlades combo 24t+48t for almost everything (or try to match 160mm Bosch to not to ruin splinter guard), get a cheapo Erbauer for them plastic "Trespa" or else they are called worktops ready for future, but until you get those delivered, Mafell blade will be good to start learning as how everything works. Plunge saw, it's near as big of a step as to learn to use properly as routing, coming from ordinary table/skill (circular) saws. Keyblades are as expensive or more than mafells... are they that good? I´ve seen some specific for laminate blades which teeth head is flat and rounded (triple chip?) similar to aluminium blades. This blade is too thick for the rubber, is just for a reference.  Are aluminium blades good for melamine too?  And there is also this one for laminate:  I understand blades with few teeth are cleaner/faster for ripping sheets. But is it only for solid wood? Plywood has crossed sheets so does it has any sense to use different blade to rip cut or cross cut? In the next days I´m receiving a MFT/3 table but before I start seriously with proyects I will play a little as you say. Did I say how grateful am I for sharing your knowledge?? |
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iban
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Post by iban on Aug 26, 2020 19:29:45 GMT -5
ANW, OP is only starting, so initial concerns are sheet "breaking", making joints and trimming etc where too aggressive angle or too few of teeth number blades *AND too thin* Freud aren't great at all. For such I'd say get perfectly sized Trend CraftMaster blades, be them carbide simply weaker, than quality blades we talked about. Cheers, over and out for the night Exactly |
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Post by aas on Aug 27, 2020 0:24:57 GMT -5
The Key blades are rubbish - great first couple of times you use them, blunt too quickly. I paid to resharpen a couple, same thing - they blunt too quickly. The Mafell (and Festool TS55) blades keep their edge. Bosch are OK for a cheaper blade / general use. I just don't see the point in getting top quailty tools and skimping on blades / cutters etc.
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iban
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Post by iban on Aug 27, 2020 8:21:38 GMT -5
First approach. Scoring postimg.cc/jL5MCwT9Cut is awesome. Very very clean But there is that famous shadow gap. Is it normal? Is much thinner than 1mm but it is visible. I didn't try to score manualy, without the scoring function Ps. Can't post images 🤷🏾♂️  |
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iban
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Post by iban on Aug 27, 2020 8:33:57 GMT -5
 freeimage.host/i/d62SDbThe 2 knobs for tightning the saw to the rail are stuck. Really tight. That tight that I can only turn them with pliers. I managed to loose them a little with the help of a few drops of wd40 and force them to turn with pliers. Any idea on what can help? I registered the saw to get 3 years warranty. Perhaps is time to start using it |
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Post by mafellme on Aug 27, 2020 9:47:04 GMT -5
OP is only starting, so initial concerns are sheet "breaking", making joints and trimming etc where too aggressive angle or too few of teeth number blades *AND too thin* Freud aren't great at all. For such I'd say get perfectly sized Trend CraftMaster blades, be them carbide simply weaker, than quality blades we talked about.
Funny how we tradespeople form different impressions of certain blades and tools.
I don't feel the Freud blades I've mentioned are too thin (1.3mm plate, 1.7mm kerf)
1.7mm - 1.3mm = 0.4mm
0.4mm / 2 = 0.2mm offset
Mafell standard blade 1.8 kerf, 1.2 plate thickness:
1.8mm - 1.2mm = 0.6mm
0.6mm / 2 = 0.3mm offset.
Therefore, the 40T Freud blade in question has a 0.1mm thicker plate than the Mafell blade, and has only a 0.1mm tooth offset discrepancy with the splinter guard, which, by your own admission, is negligible for most tasks.
The hook angle is the only significant downside that I can see, considering the low price.
As for the 162mm dia Trend blade, before I made the decision to modify my saw to accept 165mm blades, I was actually using these for a while (https://mafell-users-forum.freeforums.net/post/18589/thread), and I was quite enthusiastic at finding 162mm blades for sensible money, but I soon afterwards concluded that the Trend 162mm blades are low quality for a low price, with tiny fragments of low-grade carbide, and too much blade deflection, whereas Freud's immense scale of production permits European quality at a medium-low price, hence I abandoned the Trend blades and have been with Freud (for the majority of tasks) ever since. I still use Mafell blades for critical tasks, and if only they weren't so expensive, I'd use them almost all the time (other than for specialist tasks requiring non-standard tooth profiles).
I'm glad you like the Trend blades (as I briefly did, too), but I won't ever go back to them.
I've been using Trend products for nearly 3 decades - mostly on the routing side of things. They've always overcharged for their products, but tradespeople have tolerated it because, in the early days, they were notable for their innovation, and that innovation could help tradespeople get jobs done, and thus recoup the tooling costs. In more recent years, though, I think Trend have been trading far too much on their name, with decreasing legitimacy to their high prices, within the context of an increasingly competitive marketplace. Like so many other companies (including powertool manufacturers), they have seemingly looked to the far east to bolster their product range with lower grade items that they can try to achieve high margins on, just by slapping their badge on it, since it carries a reputation earned many years ago, when they were producing products to a high standard.
Ultimately, it's the customer that loses out. Their 162mm blade isn't 'overpriced' as such, but it is below-par quality, in my opinion. It's very similar to Shark Blades products. I have several Trend 12.7mm kitchen worktop router cutters, and the variation in quality is extremely apparent, after using them, even though they were all sold as being trade quality, not for the DIY market.
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Post by mafellme on Aug 27, 2020 9:54:09 GMT -5
I give up.
I am sick of this forum software screwing-up the formatting of quotes, and losing huge chunks of text.
Sorry, but I've tried multiple times to manually retrieve links and text in this post, and I've had enough of it getting garbled and discarded.
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Post by aas on Aug 27, 2020 12:22:54 GMT -5
I give up.
I am sick of this forum software screwing-up the formatting of quotes, and losing huge chunks of text.
Sorry, but I've tried multiple times to manually retrieve links and text in this post, and I've had enough of it getting garbled and discarded.
Yes it's trying sometimes!.. your comments are appreciated nonetheless - all adds to the info here. |
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 27, 2020 14:40:42 GMT -5
The Key blades are rubbish - great first couple of times you use them, blunt too quickly. I paid to resharpen a couple, same thing - they blunt too quickly. The Mafell (and Festool TS55) blades keep their edge. Bosch are OK for a cheaper blade / general use. I just don't see the point in getting top quailty tools and skimping on blades / cutters etc. Almost agree I was scoring Bosch Precision blades as good as Mafell or Festool for the carbide hardness (longevity) wasn't going to slack KeyBlade, as in my case it was issue of Triple Chip, but yes, gone blunt fairly quickly... Freud blades I didn't like the one I used, as it was ATB teeth configuration and "dug" in to rail guide by 0.15mm and it was too thin, cuts had some (vibration?) caused micro chips on a normal 40mm worktop Back to the OP going with Bosch Expert (blue) blades, I believe they are using same quality Carbide for teeth as Precision, but some seem to be of too aggressive angle for my liking angle for any plastic (solid or covered) cutting, like Freud, but some are perfect, as long as it is near the same (correct) geometry from saw washer to the inside of the tooth cut line. |
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 27, 2020 14:43:08 GMT -5
I understand blades with fewer teeth are cleaner/faster for ripping sheets. But is it only for solid wood? Plywood has crossed sheets so does it has any sense to use different blade to rip cut or cross cut?
for plywood 24 teeth blade is perfectly fine, so is for any wood ripping, trimming and more aggressive teeth angle is only better
TBH even kitchen panel trimming (from inside), I used 24t Mafell in the past and had almost no chipping at all
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Post by alvychippy on Aug 27, 2020 14:47:14 GMT -5
First approach. Scoring postimg.cc/jL5MCwT9Cut is awesome. Very very clean But there is that famous shadow gap. Is it normal? Is much thinner than 1mm but it is visible. I didn't try to score manualy, without the scoring function Ps. Can't post images 🤷🏾♂️ I'd say its good enough, near perfect cut, if anything, I suspect your saw isn't sitting on a guide rail snug enough, hence natural "toe in" is little exaggerated, close up from the ends would be more telling  |
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