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Post by huntsgemein on Jul 25, 2020 22:56:45 GMT -5
I can recall reading some Metabo publicity blurb a few years ago extolling the virtues of their "new" redesigned range of grinders. In particular, the mini-grinder range, which as I've already mentioned is indisputably the world's largest & probably most diversified.
Some smaller, cheaper ones are sourced from the far east, & should be regarded & treated as one should for any budget priced tool from Eastern Asia. It's just a bit of a minor tragedy that these tools are little more than an embarrassment in comparison.
The others, the ones sourced out of their factory near Stuttgart, are of a different calibre altogether. Unfortunately, Metabo's marketing never clearly differentiates between budget & professional grade tools. Meaning that their budget priced "bargain" tools will frequently disappoint, tarnishing the brand as a whole.
Given that their professional tools are designed for industrial applications in environments as harsh as North Sea Oil Rigs, mines in the deserts of Australia & Arabia & other brutal worksites the world over, it's a ridiculous dichotomy.
But I digress. Of all their tool range, I'd suggest that M's "professional" mini-grinder family is their high point. They've presumably blown millions on R&D to build a better mousetrap. The grip is the slimmest on the market. They use SQUARE copper windings in both field & armature to cram as much copper as possible into the smallest practicable diameters. This makes them superficially heavier. Always a good sign in a hard-working power tool in my opinion. All that copper makes for huge current reserves & robust protection against internal heat generation.
But it also makes them more expensive than their peers too. All that R&D expense & inherent tech. doesn't come cheap. In fact, a top 'o the line 125mm V/S Metabo will actually cost (in Australia anyway) significantly more even than a much bigger & more powerful 2600 W 230mm version, let alone any more pedestrian competitor.
A slim grip, massive blocks of copper windings & high current reserves will potentially generate massive problems with heat dissipation. To that end, M have supposedly redesigned their internal aerodynamics to aid cooling. The internal venturi air passages allow circulating air to accelerate to over 400 Km/H! Obviously only at max RPM, but nevertheless an astonishing figure.
Which will create additional risk of erosion & damage from being air blasted by grit & swarf travelling at about half the speed of sound! As additional protection, the fields are post-production dipped in epoxy armouring to assist in longevity & reliability. Metabo's grinders & a select few of their other tools veritably ooze quality & confidence in the hand. An Inox grinder, a 3-speed cordless drill or tapping drill just "feels" expensive to hold & operate. As with most of Mafell's range, the pain of expense is compensated by the pleasure of use. A sort of hidden, intrinsic embodiment of quality that can be felt rather than seen.
Not that this is true solely for Metabo, Mafell or Mirka (yes, I know they're Finnish) either: German manufacturers in particular are renowned for their intrinsic quality. Take Festo's HL850 planer & Rotex sanders for example. Both were developed in the late 70's, & haven't changed concetptually since. Sure, the Rotex has added power, reduced weight & added a few smaller sisters & competitors since, but as a single outstandingly versatile tool it has yet to be significantly bettered. In fact Festool's own smaller versions are actually significantly WORSE than the original 150 mm tool.
The planer has had 100 Watts & an Electronic brake added in the 40 years since its introduction. That's it! A near-perfect, innovative & advanced design from an extremely talented R&D team that got it right first time. I'm still using a superb quality, innovative & sophisticated electronically controlled AEG drill from the early 80s. It's easily the equal of anything I've seen from any current manufacturer. Sweden's Atlas Copco had briefly acquired & owned AEG 's power tool division & applied the latest ergonomic innovations to the rather staid manufacturer's product.
Those clever Krauts! And Swedes. And Finns. East asian manufacturers tend to excel at imitation, whereas Europeans, especially but not exclusively the Germans, are still leaders in innovation.
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Post by aas on Jul 26, 2020 0:59:58 GMT -5
Thanks for that, interesting. I checked my 125mm Metabo, it's 'only' 1550w, awesome tool though. Didn't think to check if it is German or Chinese made. Just picked up the grinder based Metabo MFE40 wall chaser - it's this that is 1900w.
I like Metabo drills and grinders - (despite preferring the Fein 18v to the Metabo cordless) they have a few other offerings that interest me, but I do think that for most tools, I'm better off going elsewhere.
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Post by holmz on Jul 26, 2020 5:04:42 GMT -5
Running a doubled-over short length of old PVC waterpipe (the black one) back & forth over the front roller whilst running the tool upside down will soon clear accumulated debris provided it hasn't solidified or glazed the belt. A little & often is the key here, extending useful belt life until the grit itself either sheds or loses sharpness.
That's an interesting method - I've never heard of PVC being used for de-clogging abrasive.
My personality has been described as abrasive, but I am too bashful to rub up against the sander. |
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Post by aas on Jul 26, 2020 5:40:09 GMT -5
That's an interesting method - I've never heard of PVC being used for de-clogging abrasive.
My personality has been described as abrasive, but I am too bashful to rub up against the sander. Try rubbing up against some PVC pipe, it seems to work for others! |
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Post by kraftt on Jul 26, 2020 7:27:18 GMT -5
... expense is compensated by the pleasure of use. A sort of hidden, intrinsic embodiment of quality that can be felt rather than seen. Just like with quality work / workmanship it costs more for what can be misunderstood as diminishing returns, but that extra effort / process usually pays dividends. I'd say these "intrinsic" qualities in tools can actually be seen, at least in the end result, because that "ease/pleasure of use" translates into confidence and what you expect & intend to achieve with the tool. |
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Post by mafellme on Jul 26, 2020 11:41:35 GMT -5
I've been giving the discussion in this whole thread a lot of thought, this past couple of days.
I think it's obvious that there is no single perfect machine for my fairly wide-ranging requirements.
However, you made a good point about the fragility of TCT blades for renovation work. I will say that I was considering the Eibenstock primarily for use with the PCD blade, with TCT only as an afterthought, if & when required.
Nonetheless, there is a risk, as you rightly implied, yesterday, that the Eibenstock, whilst possibly brilliant for certain jobs, might prove to be a bit too much of a one-trick, (well, maybe 1.5-to-2 trick) pony.
You will recall that, prior to deciding upon the Eibenstock stone grinder/miller/planer I was considering Flex's SE 14-2 150, which is a 600-2100 RPM 1400w machine with extraction shroud, primarily intended for fast pure-rotary sanding purposes, with 150mm abrasive discs.
Having mulled this over, for the past day, your enthusiasm for the multi-tasking ability of your variable-speed Metabo grinder started me realising the very narrow focus of the Eibenstock grinder/miller/planer and therefore wondering whether the nicely-integrated Flex kit might be persuaded to function with a diamond grinding cup, in addition to it's sanding abilities. That's when it snapped into focus for me that even the Flex machine wouldn't multi-task enough to manage grinding with a diamond grinding cup - purely because those cups generally require faster RPM. I had dismissed your suggestion of the variable-speed Metabo grinder (with a seperately purchased extraction shroud) only because its lowest speed is faster than I'd like for sanding tasks.
I went back to Flex's website, and dug a little deeper.
I noticed they also do a different flavour of grinder, called the RE 14-5 115, which tries to offer renovation contractors a compromise solution, that will manage both diamond-cup grinding and sanding capability. The downside? It's only a tiny 115mm cup, which is smaller than I'd ideally like. Not a total deal-breaker, but.... looking at the specs, it's speed-range is 1800-5200rpm. If it's only going to go as slow as 1800rpm, for sanding tasks, then why not go back to considering the Metabo WEV 15-150 HT, since it goes as slow as 2000rpm, and will take 150mm/6" discs?
To add weight to this conclusion, I should add that I noticed that one of Flex's single-purpose conventional sanders has a 4000rpm speed (admittedly, this is stated as relating to NO-load condition, but still, that's a lot of RPMs):
sitebox.ltd.uk/flex-lk-604-1200-watt-sander-175mm-disc-240-volt-only-oFLX_LK604
Obviously, I'd like the Metabo to be capable of going as low as, say, 1200 RPM, and I'd like it a bit less powerful for plaster walls, but when I remove surfaces from plaster walls, it's not with the intention of leaving a finished surface, but with the intention of removing whatever old crap is on the wall, so that it can then be reliably sealed and re-plastered). Here in the UK, our plastered walls (in older properties requiring renovation) are generally quite solid, rather than being made of just sheets of taped and jointed drywall/gyproc.
That will change, as the decades go by, and more and more properties will have been built using drywall (a building practice which I view with disdain, when it's used en masse).
Comparing it to the various limitations of the different options I've discussed in this thread, maybe you're right - maybe the 6" Metabo variable-speed grinder is my best compromise for this tricky decision. If I still find it too brutal for wall interior wall renovation, then I guess I'll just have to suck up the disappointment like a man and invest in a second more suitable machine for the task.
With all that said, I thought I'd finally arrived at my best option, under the circumstances. ...and then, I visited Metabo's UK site, and guess what? They don't do a 6"/150mm version of the WEV grinders.
metabo.com/uk/en/tools/cutting-sanding-milling/angle-grinder/angle-grinders-o76-150-mm/
DAMMIT! 
It is listed on the German (international) site, but that model is 2800 - 10000 rpm (maybe the RPM disparity between that model and the one on the USA website might be due to voltage differences). I know it's a 'Quick' blade fitment, but I didn't think it'd speed-up the RPM quicker, as well! 
metabo.com/com/en/tools/cutting-sanding-milling/angle-grinder/angle-grinders-o76-150-mm/wev-17-150-quick-600473000-angle-grinder.html
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Post by holmz on Jul 26, 2020 17:58:37 GMT -5
... Given that their professional tools are designed for industrial applications in environments as harsh as North Sea Oil Rigs, mines in the deserts of Australia & Arabia & other brutal worksites the world over, it's a ridiculous dichotomy. ... ... clever Krauts! And Swedes. And Finns. East asian manufacturers tend to excel at imitation, whereas Europeans, especially but not exclusively the Germans, are still leaders in innovation. Yeah but when we have a grinder accident it is more often by mistake or failure to recognise the risk. Those cleaver Saudis use them for the most brutal conditions. |
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Post by huntsgemein on Jul 26, 2020 19:31:31 GMT -5
Is that sort of how the IRA infamously use cordless drills?
Ventilating kneecaps.
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Post by huntsgemein on Jul 26, 2020 20:10:41 GMT -5
This: www.metabo.com/uk/en/tools/cutting-sanding-milling/angle-grinder/angle-grinders-o76-150-mm/wev-17-125-quick-inox-600517000-angle-grinder.htmlis M's slowest grinder that is still actually useful for grinding. It's marketed as a specialist Stainless Steel polisher/sander/grinder, but its speed range makes it multi-versatile in a whole variety of roles. Any slower & it couldn't effectively be used as a cutting/slitting tool. Any faster & it would be unsuited to sanding operations. The difference is in the gearing: the motor itself still operates at or near full speed whilst the crown wheel & bevel gears are designed & toothed for lower tool-head RPMs. In fact, with a max speed of a mere 7.6 K RPM, its fairly marginal as a metal cutter/grinder, however when fitted with a 150mm guard & discs the increased disc rim speed makes it much more viable. In 125 mm configuration the 2 - 7.6 K speed range makes for an ideally versatile sander. Ironically, it's also the most expensive "conventionally" styled grinder that the company makes. Sure, there's more painfully expensive steel bevelling, wall chasing & steel & stone processing tools etc, but all are far more narrowly focussed tools for specific tasks that merely bear passing resemblance to their mini-grinder origins. www.metabo.com/uk/en/accessories/cutting-grinding/diamond-cup-grinding-wheels/www.metabo.com/uk/en/accessories/cutting-grinding/further-accessories-for-angle-grinders/extraction-hoods/grinding-extraction-hood-ged-125-626732000.htmlwww.metabo.com/uk/en/accessories/cutting-grinding/cup-wheels-ceramic/cup-wheels-stone/www.metabo.com/uk/en/accessories/cutting-grinding/further-accessories-for-angle-grinders/extraction-hoods/cup-wheel-guard-o-80-mm-623276000.htmlwww.metabo.com/uk/en/tools/cutting-sanding-milling/concrete-stone-plaster/renovation-grinders/www.metabo.com/uk/en/tools/cutting-sanding-milling/concrete-stone-plaster/renovation-milling-machines/I'd cheekily suggest that a well-accessorised Inox grinder, with say an extra 6" guard, an extraction hood & appropriate diamond head, a PVC flexible abrasive backing disc & a selection of cloth-backed abrasive discs to suit, & maybe even a select few of Arbortech's cutting & carving solutions would be a pretty versatile kit suited to a variety of renovation tasks. |
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Post by aas on Jul 27, 2020 1:31:08 GMT -5
That's a nice grinder, shame they don't do with a paddle switch. I prefer slide on switches, but for renovation grinding, paddle is safer.
Also a shame that Metabo don't use the same fit for guards and accessories between the 230v and 18v ranges...
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Post by huntsgemein on Jul 27, 2020 22:07:47 GMT -5
Interesting. Paddle switches are an essential - vital even - safety device in "big" grinders. I don't think I've ever seen one without actually. I have one corded & one cordless Metabo 230 mm grinders (which frankly scare me shitless to use), but it must be said that I nevertheless prefer cordless version, as with the 2 batteries clipped on aft it's actually much better balanced, if a tad heavy, being far less front-heavy. I also have an old 300 mm Bosch grinder that I principally use as a concrete floor saw/chasing tool with its 95 mm depth of cut. That thing is a beast, & comes with a standard grinding guard, cutting shroud & extracted plunging jig.
I can recall an old cautionary tale of an operator working inside a large cylindrical vessel. Some type of silo or vat I suppose. He lost power, & placed his grinder down whilst still switched on. With power suddenly restored, the grinder went literally beserk, causing catastrophic & (so the story goes) fatal lacerations to his legs & torso.
Once whilst using an old Metabo 900 W mini-grinder up a short stepladder (cutting/trimming cable trays on a ceiling), a colleague "played a trick" in switching off the power. I stepped down & away to investigate, when he restored the power supply. The grinder leapt off the ladder's step-platform where it had been rested & flew to the floor where it performed a little dance, & ended up damaged as a result. He was abused & reported for dangerous & irresponsible behaviour. I was chastised for not having switched the tool off during the power interruption. He also ended up with a black eye.... wonder how that happened? Personally, if it was my choice, I would've sacked the prick.
Modern grinders (at least the good ones anyway) have a restart prevention circuit to circumvent this, deadman switching or not.
But I hate deadman type switches on mini-grinders. For me, it's just one more thing that I need to be mindful of when all I want to do is to concentrate on the tool/workpiece interface. It also severely limits some grip options when doing "delicate "tasks such as carving, sawing & sanding.
To each his own I suppose.
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Post by huntsgemein on Jul 27, 2020 22:27:19 GMT -5
That's a nice grinder, shame they don't do with a paddle switch. I prefer slide on switches, but for renovation grinding, paddle is safer. Also a shame that Metabo don't use the same fit for guards and accessories between the 230v and 18v ranges... Actually not a huge fan of Metabo's 125 mm cordless grinder. It's not actually BAD, but Bobbie Bosch's equivalent is just.... better in my opinion. I once had a pair of older non-brushless Bosch that were actually gutsier & less prone to the stalling/shutdown phenomenon than my brushless Metabo! The absolute worst grinder I've ever used was an LXT Makita. Truly dreadful for continually shutting down. Turned me off the brand for life! |
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Post by aas on Jul 28, 2020 0:06:10 GMT -5
The absolute worst grinder I've ever used was an LXT Makita. Truly dreadful for continually shutting down. Turned me off the brand for life! The first LXT brushed grinder was OK for cutting foam, anything else and it shut down!.. absolutely useless; the later brushless models were better - they got sold off a long time ago.
What annoys me is the lack of compatibility of accessories. I have the Festool AG125 which is not a bad grinder (even though it failed on me under warranty and got a new motor!), with all the accessories - floor grinding shroud, ride on track plunge base, and the freehand base with dust extraction - but these only fit this grinder.
I then have the Metabo 1550w (made in Germany, I checked!) with floor grinding shroud, ride on track plunge base (that does not lock into position when plunged) and the bog standard grinder protection - these only fit this grinder - not the Metabo 18v which has now been sold.
I have the truly excellent Fein 18v grinder - same size throat as the Metabo - but all the manufacturers have started fitting tabs and notches to turn the throat into a high security lock!.. so no accessories for this.
The Metabo and Fein are keepers; I keep the Festool for the plunge base, which is seldom used, but no one else seems to do a decent one
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Post by huntsgemein on Jul 28, 2020 10:20:55 GMT -5
Can't modify the Fein or Metabo guard/s with a file to suit the other?
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Post by aas on Jul 28, 2020 12:00:15 GMT -5
Sure I can, it's just more capitalist lock-in and annoying!
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