rob2
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Posts: 40
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Post by rob2 on Jun 1, 2020 1:39:25 GMT -5
Peter Millard recently released a video on MT55 unique plunge and shift scoring feature:
I agree with him and always felt the same: 1) Improves cut quality on rail side, makes it worse on the "waste" side. 2) Creates visible gap when pieces are butted together. 3) Problem for edge banding adhesion and appearance.
The feature was probably conceived by an engineer, not a woodworker or cabinet maker. I wish the lateral shift part could be disabled.
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Post by jonathan on Jun 1, 2020 5:27:59 GMT -5
I don't have this problem.
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Post by lincoln on Jun 1, 2020 7:34:01 GMT -5
'Bisch Basch Bosch' did a follow up video, showing his results. Also shows how the scoring mechanism works.
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rob2
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Posts: 40
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Post by rob2 on Jun 1, 2020 10:25:39 GMT -5
I don't have this problem. So, you don't get a small step on the surface of the cut? My result is consistent with Peter's. I measured 0.15 mm with feeler gauge (which is what Mafell specifies), and this much is definitely visible.
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Post by aas on Jun 1, 2020 10:27:51 GMT -5
I wish the lateral shift part could be disabled. Just cut full depth, no pre-score, and you should be fine.
I think it is related to the blade. One of my standard MT55 blades does it more than the other one; less of a problem with the Festool solid surface blade, but it is slightly thicker, 2.2mm instead of 1.8mm.
There are probably 'less than ideal' points with all tools; for me the Festool deal breaker with the TS19 (sorry 55!).. was it's lack of power and being useful for sheet goods only.
In an 'ideal' world, yes I guess it would be nice to be able to disable the offset - but it's not a deal breaker for me - at least it cuts up to 55mm! It remains the best standard size plunge saw.
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Post by aas on Jun 1, 2020 10:29:13 GMT -5
I don't have this problem. So, you don't get a small step on the surface of the cut? My result is consistent with Peter's. I measured 0.15 mm with feeler gauge (which is what Mafell specifies), and this much is definitely visible. Do you have the saw properly dialled into the rails?.. no slop?
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rob2
New Member
Posts: 40
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Post by rob2 on Jun 1, 2020 11:05:51 GMT -5
So, you don't get a small step on the surface of the cut? My result is consistent with Peter's. I measured 0.15 mm with feeler gauge (which is what Mafell specifies), and this much is definitely visible. Do you have the saw properly dialled into the rails?.. no slop? Yes I do, no slop. That's not the issue. The issue is the blade shifts 0.15 mm relative to score cut as it is supposed to do by design. (You can also measure this shift in the hinge, there is a gap opening up). Then it's up to the user to decide whether it's as a problem, or just ignore it because indeed in many cases it does not matter.
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Post by aas on Jun 1, 2020 13:07:14 GMT -5
It is part of the issue... if there is slop, the shadow gap can end up being greater than 0.15mm, no need to guess how I know!
If your saw is cutting at 0.15mm over for the score cut - i.e. as designed - the solution is to NOT do a score cut. Then it will function as a Festool... just with more power.
Otherwise, the Makita has a score setting that does not shift the body of the saw over, it cuts well (I have the 2x 18v).
In most cases it does not matter as you say. I have had situations where it does matter - so for ultra precise work where I can not tolerate a 0.15mm gap (2mm white edge banding on white melamine board!) I clean up with a router down a rail - it adds a minute to the preparation, but at least it's perfect.
I would like to see the results of the Mafell edge bander with a straight off the saw cut... but that's another subject.
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Post by kraftt on Jun 1, 2020 14:28:11 GMT -5
I remember seeing the Millard video, don't know why but before he got two words out I could palpably sense the 'skew' coming. Why? Because it's mid 2020 and a 'comparison' between the two saws at this point is redundant & suspect unless you have an agenda. The mafell MT55 purposely has clearly visible & accessible adjustment screws and is simple to figure out. How can you do a side by side video tool test and not know your tools? Really. And rob2 you might remember I replied to you in another thread where my final comment addressed & explained this exact issue and it's adjustment before the Millard video: "Absolutely setting camber can erase the 0.1mm score. Camber sets the back of blade at full plunge farther away from s.g. than the front. That means that scoring depth does not see the full circumference of the blade and as the blade plunges deeper the amount of camber set can overcome the 0.1mm score shift to erase the score ridge. But how much is that worth it because you need to be accurate setting it otherwise you will trim the s.g. too and so would also always want to use the same blade. I use 160mm / 162mm / 165mm blades so it’s not as practical for me and, as I may have mentioned before, I omitted setting camber last teardown."A simple test to show this is to compare the amount of ridge left between a 160 blade & a 165 blade to know if you have any camber set. If someone wanted to they could even take the saw apart, replace the two thick cam washers with one very wide flat stand-off/washer (or multiples of thinner washers as I've done), and have it back together in under 15 min. I've done it many times looking at the feature and possible mods. This whole debate is all user error and nonsense. If your saw came out of alignment fresh from factory then you just send it back. Otherwise you are responsible for the upkeep of your tools.
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rob2
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Posts: 40
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Post by rob2 on Jun 1, 2020 19:46:05 GMT -5
- Absolutely setting camber can erase the 0.1mm score. ... - This whole debate is all user error and nonsense. If your saw came out of alignment fresh from factory then you just send it back. - Yes, camber will erase 0.1 score. I don't need camber, I need a flat perpendicular cut. When you laminate boards camber, even as small as this, adds up to a several mm of cupping over the panel. Don't ask how I know. (You could, off course, cut from opposite sides, but why does it have to be this complicated). - There is no user error, it works exactly as intended. The debate is about a design feature with potential to create problems. No doubt Mafell wanted to imitate what panel saws do, but only got it partially. On format style saws scoring blade is adjustable laterally. Actually removing those washers is exactly what I was planning. Any hints on the process? Is the shaft simply pressed in? Which way to push it out? Thank you. I sense a fellow soul here, I like to tear down and "improve" things.
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rob2
New Member
Posts: 40
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Post by rob2 on Jun 1, 2020 19:51:13 GMT -5
If your saw is cutting at 0.15mm over for the score cut - i.e. as designed - the solution is to NOT do a score cut. Then it will function as a Festool... just with more power. Not quite. You can still do score cut without shift on Festool. Just move depth stop - awkward, I agree. With MT it's either score cut with a shift, or none at all.
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Post by lincoln on Jun 1, 2020 20:34:03 GMT -5
If your saw is cutting at 0.15mm over for the score cut - i.e. as designed - the solution is to NOT do a score cut. Then it will function as a Festool... just with more power. Not quite. You can still do score cut without shift on Festool. Just move depth stop - awkward, I agree. With MT it's either score cut with a shift, or none at all. Just make the score cut a bit deeper, no shift then.
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Post by kraftt on Jun 1, 2020 21:20:48 GMT -5
- Absolutely setting camber can erase the 0.1mm score. ... - This whole debate is all user error and nonsense. If your saw came out of alignment fresh from factory then you just send it back. - Yes, camber will erase 0.1 score. I don't need camber, I need a flat perpendicular cut. When you laminate boards camber, even as small as this, adds up to a several mm of cupping over the panel. Don't ask how I know. (You could, off course, cut from opposite sides, but why does it have to be this complicated). - There is no user error, it works exactly as intended. The debate is about a design feature with potential to create problems. No doubt Mafell wanted to imitate what panel saws do, but only got it partially. On format style saws scoring blade is adjustable laterally. Actually removing those washers is exactly what I was planning. Any hints on the process? Is the shaft simply pressed in? Which way to push it out? Thank you. I sense a fellow soul here, I like to tear down and "improve" things. As far as the disassembly I’ve been meaning to do a video for a long while so that people stay calm putting it back together. Many projects, but soon, it’s on my list. If your saw is leaving too much of a ridge, vs/compared to BBB’s video (excellent video explanation btw), then you might not have any camber set at the moment in the first place. So I’m not sure anything but a panel saw or jointer is what you, yourself, need for the level of precision you are after in your glue ups. The Fest track saw, the Erika, the MT55, possibly other track saws, employ camber intentionally. The other issue is that, even without camber, biased force can affect true 90º on a track saw. Any saw that isn’t perfectly cutting 90º in thick material could effect wide glue ups. Isn’t this why guys place a couple of bars across the top and bottom to stop any potential cupping? Anyways, I say this because, and I think we’ve talked about this before, putting a square on the base of the saw to adjust blade 90º doesn’t mean you set it to 90º. If you look at the wear pattern on the bottom of the base of the saw the paint (or plastic depending) will be rubbed off on corner high spots (or elsewhere). And then there’s always the potential for blade flex too. I think track saws can be fairly precise but like so many here have said before they use them to break down sheet goods. (?)
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Post by aas on Jun 2, 2020 0:32:33 GMT -5
Just make the score cut a bit deeper, no shift then. Have you worked out what depth you need to set it to?.. I don't have either of my MT's with me at the moment - working up in the mountains enjoying the views and peace and quiet!
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Post by aas on Jun 2, 2020 0:34:08 GMT -5
I’m not sure anything but a panel saw or jointer is what you, yourself, need for the level of precision you are after in your glue ups. ^^ This ^^
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