pat
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Post by pat on Mar 10, 2020 18:42:15 GMT -5
Hey everybody,
i am new here and just want to say hello to my Mafell Friends.
I am currently stocking up my tools, actually i never had my own tools but always had to use the cheap stuff that was around - and i am so done with that! I am very glad there are brands like Mafell who make tools you really can rely on. I thought "oh cool, i am gonna go completely on Festool" when i decided to finally get my own stuff, but then i started my research last summer and i am glad i did that...
Since one week a can call a P1 cc my own. I was looking for a cordless jigsaw and when i found this forum in October last Year i read that there is no cordless P1 in sight. But when i came back a few days ago i was very pleased to read that there is one in development - will get one for sure!
The next investment will be an MT55, i would love to get the battery version but with the charger and the batteries its almost duble the price, so i might go for the corded version and then swap over for a cordles setup when the P1 18m bl (I assume that could be the offical description) is launched.
Actually it would make more sense to get a kss60/K65 (I read they are the same, just distributet whith the different rails) because i need to cut thick planks which the MT55 might not reach deep enought, but i dont know why, somehow i prefer the MT55.
After that i will go for the DDF40. Saw some strengh comparison with the Domino and the Dowels where stronger.
Actually i miss some tools from mafell. Of course you can go with Metabo as they are both in the Cordless alliance, but i dont really get "warm" with metabo, even tho they seem to be a good qaulity brand. Do you think Mafell will widen they varity of tools? Like a Mitre Saw, a sawzall, a Grinder, a bigger variaty of sanders and an oszillating tool maybe? Maybe a new planer could suit their product line as well, the current MHU82 seems outdated.
Whats are your thoughts on that? Maybe you know Mafell better than me or even have some insights.
As long as they dont have a Mitre Saw i think i will go for the Festool Kapex as precision is what i am looking for, same with the Router. The big LO from mafell doesnt seem very handy to be honest.
Ok, i think thats it for now. Would love to read your thoughts on the Mafell range of tools, i am very curious what might come in the future.
Good night from Germany. Pat
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Post by aas on Mar 11, 2020 2:23:05 GMT -5
Hi Pat,
Mafell won't be getting into a whole range of other tools. I prefer they stick with doing a bunch of decent tools than doing too many and letting the quality slip.
I had a whole range of Metabo, I've sold most of them on - no point using the same batteries if the tools aren't very good! Best to find a battery platform that provides most of what you need and go with that if you can.
MT55 and K65 are very different saws - what do you need a saw for? MT55 is mainly for panel work, K65 is a construction saw and you'll be hard pressed to find fine finish panel blades for it, but you can get a rip blade for the MT55.
Festool do some excellent tools, no problem to go with them! I already have a lot of Festool, I might get a Kapex too at some point.
P1CC is the best jigsaw that exists, get a good selection of blades and try it out. I use a lot of Bosch blades, very happy with the results.
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Mar 11, 2020 10:09:30 GMT -5
Welcome Pat!
I agree with aas, in that I suggest that you not limit yourself to a single platform or "System". For cordless, I have a mix of HILTI, Mafell/Metabo, Festool, and Bosch, with each filling a specific niche. Also, this way I'm not constantly swapping a pair of batteries.
The MT-55cc is best used on panels, whereas the K/KSS saws are best suited to working with lumber, with a secondary function to break down sheets. That being said, I'd take a KSS-40/300 or KSS-400/50 over just about any other saw on the market, but the MT-55 is really optimized for panel work.
It's important to note that, at least as of two years ago, the K-XX saws ARE NOT COMPATIBLE with the KSS tracks. It's an extra machining step, and Mafell skips that step for the K-series saws. Important to know if you think you want to eventually use the KSS attached track.
What kind of work do you perform? Cabinetry? On-site trim carpenter? General Remodeler? Framer? For a general contractor/remodeler, I'd probably purchase saws in this order: 1.) KSS-40: All around "Go-To!" saw, super light, great cross-cuts and good performer breaking down sheet goods 2.) MT-55cc: Shop Boss, my "Go-To!" saw for breaking down cabinet parts in the shop 3.) KSS-50 or KSS-60: Great framing saw. I'd likely opt for a corded saw to maintain maximum power.
In terms of miter saws, the Kapex is a great, light saw, and I produced some great work with mine. That being said, I sold my Kapex several years ago to go towards my current Erika 70. Between my Erika 70 and KSS-300/40, I haven't missed owning a miter saw.
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pat
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Post by pat on Mar 11, 2020 17:29:04 GMT -5
Hi Pat, Mafell won't be getting into a whole range of other tools. I prefer they stick with doing a bunch of decent tools than doing too many and letting the quality slip. I had a whole range of Metabo, I've sold most of them on - no point using the same batteries if the tools aren't very good! Best to find a battery platform that provides most of what you need and go with that if you can. MT55 and K65 are very different saws - what do you need a saw for? MT55 is mainly for panel work, K65 is a construction saw and you'll be hard pressed to find fine finish panel blades for it, but you can get a rip blade for the MT55. Festool do some excellent tools, no problem to go with them! I already have a lot of Festool, I might get a Kapex too at some point. P1CC is the best jigsaw that exists, get a good selection of blades and try it out. I use a lot of Bosch blades, very happy with the results. Hey aas, hm, actually makes sense. I already had in mind of getting a battery powered Fein oscillating tool so I think I will expand that with grinder and later maybe a metal sheer or a nibler. For the sanders I discovered Mirka. They seem to be the best out there from what I saw, heard and read. Thanks a lot for the information regarding the saw blades for the K65. I don't do big lumber and clean cuts is what I am looking for, so I will go for the MT55 for sure. I agree with you on Festool, but prior to my research I wanted to go completely for Festool and that's what I am off totally. The big drill for example is not worth the money but I love the apex and the router, also might get a TS75 for deeper clean cuts. I am also pretty sure one of their Vacuums will end up in my shop. The P1 cc was one of the only tools a had absolutely no doubts about getting one after my research. Did the first cuts with it and its pure joy to work with this machine
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pat
New Member
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Post by pat on Mar 11, 2020 18:16:46 GMT -5
Welcome Pat! I agree with aas, in that I suggest that you not limit yourself to a single platform or "System". For cordless, I have a mix of HILTI, Mafell/Metabo, Festool, and Bosch, with each filling a specific niche. Also, this way I'm not constantly swapping a pair of batteries. The MT-55cc is best used on panels, whereas the K/KSS saws are best suited to working with lumber, with a secondary function to break down sheets. That being said, I'd take a KSS-40/300 or KSS-400/50 over just about any other saw on the market, but the MT-55 is really optimized for panel work. It's important to note that, at least as of two years ago, the K-XX saws ARE NOT COMPATIBLE with the KSS tracks. It's an extra machining step, and Mafell skips that step for the K-series saws. Important to know if you think you want to eventually use the KSS attached track. What kind of work do you perform? Cabinetry? On-site trim carpenter? General Remodeler? Framer? For a general contractor/remodeler, I'd probably purchase saws in this order: 1.) KSS-40: All around "Go-To!" saw, super light, great cross-cuts and good performer breaking down sheet goods 2.) MT-55cc: Shop Boss, my "Go-To!" saw for breaking down cabinet parts in the shop 3.) KSS-50 or KSS-60: Great framing saw. I'd likely opt for a corded saw to maintain maximum power. In terms of miter saws, the Kapex is a great, light saw, and I produced some great work with mine. That being said, I sold my Kapex several years ago to go towards my current Erika 70. Between my Erika 70 and KSS-300/40, I haven't missed owning a miter saw. Hey Tom, yes, I agree that a mix makes sense. I Just was curious, in my opinion a mitre saw would fit in Mafells product line quit nicely. I am now sure that I will go for the MT55 (Your point 2. convinced me even more and later I might add a K/kss. I actually do not really need a KSS track, it would just be nice to have. At first I wanted to have a kss track because of the angle adjustment, but then I saw the F-WA track addition and will go for this one. Actually I am not a professional wood worker, its just my hobby that I want to expand. I have a fixed workshop space so a portable saw is not really what I need. I will go for a stationary table saw from Hammer which is a product line of Felder. Their small K3 starts at a bit over 2.000€ and is more what I am looking for. So the Kapex would just be a nice addition. I really love the precision of this saw. What I really can recommend is the 12V line of BOSCH. I have the 12V Flexiclick drill and I love the of center attachment, the small router is also very handy for rounding edges.
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Post by aas on Mar 12, 2020 8:14:44 GMT -5
I already had in mind of getting a battery powered Fein oscillating tool so I think I will expand that with grinder... For the sanders I discovered Mirka... Mirka are fantastic for sanders, I have 3 or 4.
I also have the battery Fein oscillating tool and grinder - very pleased, massive upgrade from the Metabo.
If you're not doing this professionally where you can write off the tool costs, where batteries will not be charged regularly, and you're maybe not under the time constraints and pressure of a professional - consider going for mains tools - they will last a lifetime!
We do not know where we will be with cordless tools in 5, 10, 15 years - it may be hard getting replacement batteries for the tools we are buying today as the latest and greatest (world running out of Lithium, no backward compatibility with new generation batteries with older tools, etc.)
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Mar 12, 2020 8:56:33 GMT -5
Hi Pat! Yes, the MT-55cc is the King in my shop for breaking down sheet goods. The Mafell tracks are great and are what I carry with me in my Sprinter for site-use. In my shop, I am getting a TON of use out of the TSO TPG-50 setup, paired with a Festool FS1900 guide rail for breaking down 5' x 5' Baltic birch. TSO TPG-50: tsoproducts.com/tso-parallel-guide-system/tpg-50-complete-parallel-guide-system/ It's a spendy system, but it really leverages the abilities of the MT-55. I keep looking at getting a Felder KF-700 slider, but between my MT-55 paired with the TSO products and my Erika, I just can't justify getting a slider. The Kapex is a great miter saw. Definitely more refined than most, nice and portable. For my needs, I found a combo of the KSS-40 and a Erika saw more than covers any/all applications, and as stated above I do not miss having a miter saw. If you are planning on picking up one of the K3 saws, you may find that you don't have a need for a miter saw. Which length slider are you thinking? I have a Hammer A3-41 with the Silent Power cutter set for delivery sometime in April, excited to acquire my first Hammer. Finally, yeah I have the Bosch 12V router and the planer, they're both super handy for quickie on-site projects where I just need to ease and edge or clean up a cut edge. aas, I agree on the Mirka sanders, I have their 2.5mm orbit 150mm Deros sander, as well as their Leros drywall sander and they're both awesome, looking forward to eventually picking up a Deos sometime down the road.... I too am curious to where cordless is going. I spoke with a local distributor a few weeks ago, he said he heard a rumor that Makita had plans to go cordless across their ENTIRE product line in the next 10 years or so, curious to see how things shake out. Going cordless certainly makes sense for the manufacturers, since they can develop their entire product line around a known quantity (battery specs), don't have to develop different motors for different markets (120 vs 240, 50Hz vs 60Hz, etc...), and the perceived need by some of staying in one battery platform encourages brand loyalty.
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pat
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Post by pat on Mar 12, 2020 19:04:45 GMT -5
Hi Pat! Yes, the MT-55cc is the King in my shop for breaking down sheet goods. The Mafell tracks are great and are what I carry with me in my Sprinter for site-use. In my shop, I am getting a TON of use out of the TSO TPG-50 setup, paired with a Festool FS1900 guide rail for breaking down 5' x 5' Baltic birch. TSO TPG-50: tsoproducts.com/tso-parallel-guide-system/tpg-50-complete-parallel-guide-system/ It's a spendy system, but it really leverages the abilities of the MT-55. I keep looking at getting a Felder KF-700 slider, but between my MT-55 paired with the TSO products and my Erika, I just can't justify getting a slider. The Kapex is a great miter saw. Definitely more refined than most, nice and portable. For my needs, I found a combo of the KSS-40 and a Erika saw more than covers any/all applications, and as stated above I do not miss having a miter saw. If you are planning on picking up one of the K3 saws, you may find that you don't have a need for a miter saw. Which length slider are you thinking? I have a Hammer A3-41 with the Silent Power cutter set for delivery sometime in April, excited to acquire my first Hammer. Finally, yeah I have the Bosch 12V router and the planer, they're both super handy for quickie on-site projects where I just need to ease and edge or clean up a cut edge. aas, I agree on the Mirka sanders, I have their 2.5mm orbit 150mm Deros sander, as well as their Leros drywall sander and they're both awesome, looking forward to eventually picking up a Deos sometime down the road.... I too am curious to where cordless is going. I spoke with a local distributor a few weeks ago, he said he heard a rumor that Makita had plans to go cordless across their ENTIRE product line in the next 10 years or so, curious to see how things shake out. Going cordless certainly makes sense for the manufacturers, since they can develop their entire product line around a known quantity (battery specs), don't have to develop different motors for different markets (120 vs 240, 50Hz vs 60Hz, etc...), and the perceived need by some of staying in one battery platform encourages brand loyalty. Hey Tom, The TSO Parts look great, will definitely have an eye on them. The Hammer A3-41 mit the silent Power is exactly what I am looking for as well! I will get it prior to the table saw as a (will) have the MT55, so I am not sure yet what slider length I will end up with. I already went to my local Felder distributer and checked the price. Will defenetly be my first heavy duty machine. The Battery technology made a huge jump forward in the last years and the first Hemp and Lignin Batteries are currently in Development. Their storage capacity is so much bigger that they will wipe out Lithium very fast after their implementation, I am pretty sure. I heard from Metabo too that they will go completely on cordless and Makitas Cordless line is already one of the biggest out there. And yes I think you are right that it encourages platform Loyalty, its also marketing for sure. Actually Bosch would be totally fine for my needs, yes, but since last summer I am addicted to high end tools. I just love using them and when I know there is a better plunge saw, sander or oscillating tool out there I simply want to get it.
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Post by huntsgemein on Mar 12, 2020 20:51:39 GMT -5
G'day Pat. Welcome to the forum. Sounds like you're pretty well-informed regarding the various relative merits of Mafell vs alternate brands, & have already "cherry picked" the cream of the crop as far as Mafell's offerings are concerned.
Each & every manufacturer has its own particular specialities & expertise, as well as dogs & embarrassments too. As far as Mafell is concerned, the P1 jiggy, many of their other saws (in particular their Erica/s & MT55 corded & cordless fraternal twins) seem to be almost universally highly regarded. You could save a bunch of money by buying a naked (they call the particular package "Pure") MT55 18A BL from Mafell, & the batteries & charger elsewhere from a Metabo dealer. Maybe as a part of another Cordless Alliance tool package perhaps?
Other members of the Cordless Alliance seem to offer expertise & on occasion "best in class" cordless offerings. Metabo makes fantastic cordless drills. Powerful versatile, innovative & (serendipitously) inexpensive too; at least in relation to their price/performance/features/capabilities matrix. I'd contend that their BS18 LTX-3 BL Q I & GB18 LTX BL Q I are just about the current state of the art, & easily the equal or even superior to anything else on the market.
This, coupled with the fact that the Alliance's battery system is also just about the best currently available make a pretty powerful argument in my opinion. Bosch also use the same Sanyo Panasonic cells in their own (unfortunately incompatible) battery system too, including a massive 12.0 AH iteration! Yet in general I've found that the Robert Bosch 18v class of tools to be not quite the equal of the equivalent Cordless Alliance competitors, either in range, versatility or capability. Nevertheless, I'd still contend that the Bosch versions of their SDS plus Hammers & Cordless Grinders are probably the best that I've ever used, easily outclassing all others.
You have (in my opinion anyway) quite rightly stated that the Mirka range of sanders are currently the best available in their respective classes. I currently have 4: DEOS in small Rectangular & Delta configurations (also had a large Rectangular that I gave away as it wasn't necessary to "double-up") & DEROS in 5.0 & 8.0 orbits. They're a revelation in speed, efficiency & ergonomic light weight. I do, however, hate those damned speed paddles. I use a 6" length of electrical tape to tape it "On" in use to allow me to shift my grip around to better suit the particular conditions. It's merely a fraction of a second's work to remove the tape for mesh "paper" exchange. I'm also not a fan of those stupid "plug-it" type cables. In my opinion Festool & Mirka's greatest ever mistake. They're not unique. B&D/Elu, Atlas Copco/Milwaukee & even Kress had their own abortive versions too. They're all rubbish in my opinion, although it's only Festool & Mirka that have actually been problematic for me, principally I suspect due to their intended use for swapping the attached tools. All my other "plug-it" type tools have remained resolutely attached to their respective power cable/s. It just introduces yet another utterly needless level of complexity & source of unreliability & potential breakdown. Keep a spare on hand at all times.
I personally absolutely hated my own Kapex. I found it to be too expensive for the features & capacity available, and at times unreliable & even dangerous in use: non-returning blade guard! Some features were indeed great. It's compact, relatively lightweight & has excellent extraction ability & a superb bevel adjustment. If I was more mobile in my needs, I'd probably still have it, but I personally prefer the huge, heavy & powerful Bosch glide saw & my old Radial Arm Saw for accurate workshop use. I also have a tiny Metabo cordless SCMS which was laughably small, lightweight & inexpensive (US $167 equiv.) in comparison! It's "OK" (read "acceptable") in use, but at the price an absolute dynamite bargain. It's just so convenient to go mobile & cordless at times with such a compact & lightweight tool. The equivalent Bosch saw costs over 3 times as much, & Hitachi-Koki's equivalent some 5 times the price!
I once had a fairly large range of Festo/ol products, but have trimmed the arsenal from about 25 odd to only a couple now: CT22 vac & (ex HolzHer) BS105E Belt sander. I hung onto a few others, old Festo RS100C orbital, Deltex, Rotex & SR5E vac too, but have since found it just too difficult to source local parts, repairs & consumables. Frankly, there's absolutely nothing whatsoever in Festool's current range that interests me in the slightest. Some of their more "recent" (i.e. post millenial) tools that I've tried have been just awful. The Trion jigsaw, Rotex 90 & Duplex sanders & of course the Kapex 120 were little short of a disastrous waste of money for me. Their ridiculous cordless range (I've only owned a couple of drills, but have tried a couple of saws & the orbital sander) is just a joke. Having "wasted" almost 20 thousand or so Aussie dollars on their overpriced, underperforming, outdated and unreliable rubbish I doubt that I'd give 'em so much as a second glance any more.
Which brings me back full circle to Mafell's rather limited range of tools. Realistically, you need to carefully analyse the type of work (i.e. the specific tasks) that you're likely to perform. What your expectations are, whether you're intending to earn a living with your tools or is it just a "hobby", whether you intend going mobile or are restricted to a workshop or home base and of course your budget.
I've worked (at times) as a builder, electrician & plumber over the years, using a variety of (albeit mostly Euro-sourced) quality power tools. Plus a bunch of mainly USA made hand tools too. My occasional foray into asian made tools have in general been an unhappy experience. But that's just me: virtually each & every other contractor that I've worked with for decades now is more than happy with the huge range of cheap asian made tools that were (& still are) available from predominantly Makita, Hitachi-Koki & latterly Milwaukee. I've always preferred my old AEGs, Atlas Copcos, Elus, DeWalts, Metabos, HolzHers, Festos, Robert Bosch, Eisenblaetter, Eibenstock et. al. In many ways, I still do. These were, & in some instances still are, better quality & better designed tools than modern equivalents in my opinion. Those I still own are still going strong & perform well. For instance, I think you'd be extremely hard pressed to find better routers then the old/er Elu versions that are still being made (unfortunately no longer in Switzerland) by DeWalt. These almost 50 year old designs are still extremely highly regarded, not just by me but by many thousands of trade professionals.
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pat
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Post by pat on Mar 16, 2020 18:46:48 GMT -5
Hey Hundsgemein and thanks The idea of getting the batteries somewhere else, from Metabo for example is a good and simple one, thanks for that! Metabo is much more spread on the markets so the batteries are cheaper. And yeah, I think its time for me to consider one of their drills. I already now that Metabo builds the Mafell drills and I was a bit confused when I saw that the Mafell drills are weaker in power. Mafell is often used for big lumber where you really need the power. One reason why I want to get one is the "neck", that can get very useful, not at least for that guy: www.metabo.com/de/de/zubehoer/zubehoer-akkumaschinen/spezielles-zubehoer/zubehoer-fuer-bohrmaschinen-und-bohrschrauber-quick/drehmomentvorsatz-powerx3-627256000.htmlI am also sad that Bosch isn't in the CAS, I really like many of their tools. As a already mentioned, Bosch or maybe even Ryobi would be enough for my frequent work that I do at the moment. But I want to do much more and I am addicted to premium tools. And maybe its also a hobby of me of collecting them. (I love to use them as well of course) I have a stationary workshop, what I like, but I would like to go cordless if possible. Sometimes I have to do something for my sister in the garden, the cord is bothering my during my work here and there and I don't like to put the cord back in the sustainer, it just takes too much time. So the plug it system you are not friend of is actually something that I seriously consider. But I don't want to touch my P1 and other tools as long as the warranty is running.... Can you give a specific tool number for a good router? The current Dewalt routers look as all the others. But thanks for the information, I didn't know that. The work I do is quit diverse. Sometimes I am building children's toys, sometimes I renew a wooden floor. This summer I will build a climbing frame for my nephew in my sisters backyard. Longterm I want to build a steam chamber and want to work with bended wood. I have no experiences, just gathered what I could find on the Internet. I am really looking forward of doing my first experimentation. On Festool I agree regarding the Battery platform. They have some tools that I am seriously considering, for examples one of their vacs and the TS75. Their drills for example I would not even look at, they are just insanely over priced. Also the carvex jigsaw, its even rarely used by Festool guys from what I read. I also read a lot about motor failures on the 110V Kapex 120 machines on the FOG Forum and I am not so sure anymore if that the right choice. What mitre saw would be your recommendation when I am looking for precision?
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Post by aas on Mar 17, 2020 0:45:43 GMT -5
You're in Germany on 230v - no need worrying about 110v motor failures!
Mafell use slightly older generation drills than Metabo, for now they don't intend updating to the newer models. For the work you said you are doing, the 10,8v would be adequate, worrying about the power of the drills is not necessary.
The DeWalt DW625 is based on the old Elu MOF177 - very nice to handle and use - a lot of router for the money.
Might be worth looking at Starmix for vacs.
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Post by huntsgemein on Mar 17, 2020 20:51:58 GMT -5
Pat, there's truly nothing wrong with the older gen. of Mafell/Metabo akku drills. Apart from the Mafell versions tending to be disproportionally expensive. It's just that the latest gen. of 3-speed tools allows an ultra-high speed (3600 RPM?) for sheet metal work, riveting etc. Any diff in torque is merely marginal at best. I can't really notice any diff whatsoever between the BS18 LTX BL Q I & the LTX-3 versions in the lower 2 gears.
With the torque reduction device that you've highlighted you get an additional 3-times reduction in speed & tripling of torque output! I use mine for driving a 7" earth auger into soils for fencing, tree planting etc. in places away from any mains power source. Otherwise, I find it a bit too slow for most other applications. Much more useful (to me anyway) is the accessory 90 degree attachment. It can be fitted with standard "Quick" chucks, hex adaptors etc. It's just amazing how many times this little device has saved me from having to disregard a poorly placed hole or screw location. It's an excellent quality, versatile alternative to a dedicated angle drill that would otherwise be only needed occasionally. The only actual angle drill that I've ever owned (an elderly Makita) was just so much bloody rubbish (the chuck would constantly undo itself) that I remember flinging it away from me on a worksite as far as I could!
I don't think the Mafell/Metabo 10.8v class of drills, drivers, sawzall & caulking gun are really all that much good. I only have the Metabo drill, rattler & recipro combo, & personally find it a little frustrating at times. Ideally sized & weighted for smaller (female, children's?) hands, its just a bit gutless for bigger jobs. The drill is a bit too slow in max RPM to be truly useful, a bit low powered for augers, speedbors & spade bits, or for driving larger screws (rattler). The saw's stroke is a bit too short for rapid progress in hardwood. This setup was (still is) ideal for doing small-scale architectural modelling, smaller scale & delicate furniture construction etc, but less well suited for general duties, household chores & installation & construction work.
The newer "12V" , which are actually still 10.8v 3 & 6 cell tools, have the option of using EC (brushless) motors (or standard brushed motors for a reduced price), & seem to have the missing speed & power of the 10.8v class. They use LiHD batteries of 4.0AH capacity, & chargers 100% compatible with the rest of the CAS 18v system. I only have the EC drill & rattler, together with angle & offset driving adapters to make a pretty versatile "household tool" kit for homestead & in-house use. The recipro saw apparently has an increased 16mm stroke: up from 12mm for the 10.8v version. I'm guessing that this 33% increase in stroke would make it a whole lot more useful for lighter jobs. The new 18V version, with a "man-sized" 32mm stroke, makes it about as powerful, useful & versatile as the best of the rest of alternative brands' recipros for general construction & demo work.
In regard to routers, I'm a particular fan of the old Elu MOF96E. The newer version is sold as a DeWalt DW615 or Trend T5. Nothing fancy here. It's as old as the hills (approaching 50 years old in fact), slightly crude and outclassed by most others on the market. Yet it is almost universally acclaimed as th finest hand-held & freehand router ever made. It is also the inheritor of the world's biggest range of aftermarket accessories.
An updated version, the ELU MOF 97 & 97E, DeWalt 620 & 621 has more power (1100w) superior dust extraction & a different set of system accessories. USA & Australian models only have unique arbors, allowing both 1/4" & 1/2" (6mm,8mm & 12mm for you krauts) collets & cutters. All EU models only allow 1/4" & 8mm cutters, using the same collets as the MOF96, DeWaly 613 & 615s. The USA & OZ models use different collets, the same as the DeWalt DW622 (1400w) & DW626 (2300w).
Confused? Don't worry. I am too. I'll try to explain the Elu/DeWalt system to you better. The Elu 96, E, 97, E, Trend T5 & DeWalt 613 & 615 share 1/4", 6mm & 8mm collets. They also share similar fence systems. The 96, T5 & 613/615 also share common "universal" guide bushes in an incredible variety of standard metric & imperial sizes.
The Elu 97 & DeWalt 620, 621 & 622 share a different range of guide bushes with the much bigger DW626. The USA/Oz versions only of the 621, & everybody's DW622 & DW626 share common collets & guide bushes.
The Elu MOF 177 & 177E, & DeWalt's DW 624 & 625 have a different (third) class of collets & guide bushes, all odf which are still commonly available from DeWalt & Trend (UK) Ltd. Incidentally, the 3 different classes of collets are (or at least were) common with the 3 different sizes of Festo/ol routers. Clear as mud now?
Which router is "best"? Depends, really. The old Elu versions seem to run sweeter & actually be better (Swiss, by Perles) made. If I was making signs, lettering, using complex templates or just artistic freehand work, the I think an Elu 96, DW615 or T5 (or even an original Perles) would be best. For use in an old ELU mini-spindle for running mouldings for architectural modelling or maybe dolls house or traditional toy making the same also applies.
For use under a table for spindle moulding, the sheer power of the 2300w DW626 takes a lot of beating. Only the big beast of a Mafell is more powerful. The 2KW of the updated 625 makes it a pretty versatile alternative, allowing both inverted table mounting & also some fence, template, guide bush & even freehand work (if you're brave enough) in lower bit diameters. Plus the 625 (& Trend T10 & T11 & CMT versions) allow access to the extraordinary range of Trend accessories.
I once had old Elu 96E & 177E routers. The former was stolen & I stupidly sold the latter. I now have a DW622 & 626. The big one is used almost exclusively upside down in a big, heavy cast iron sliding router table, & the 622 for everything else: dovetail jig, guided template work, a routerlathe, router carver, freehand etc. The 620, 621 & 622 on/off locking switches tend to be a bit weird at first, but it's something that you eventually get used to.
Which is best? Dunno! Each model is "best" at certain tasks & pretty crap @ others. What do you intend to do with it?
As for an SCMS, it's in some ways a similar story. If you're after "precision" then maybe a Kapex 120 is the go? Many users adore it, but for me it's a frustrating tool. That stupid elongated vertical handle slot feels awful, & gets dangerously slippery from sweat in the heat of summer. I've almost always preferred horizontal handles. But maybe that's just me. The Kapex has superior dust extraction & fabulous bevel adjustment. Probably the best available. But I still won't ever own another one.
The big Bosch glide saw, & even bigger 400mm x-cut from the GCM12 makes them extremely capacious & powerful. But they're big , heavy bitches, too. Better suited to fixed installations (within bigger fixed benches) in a workshop. Henrik loves his little portable cordless Hitachi. There's a whole thread about it elsewhere on this forum. I've also been hearing pretty good things about the newest Makita twin vertically aligned slide SCMS too.
But if you want the biggest, baddest, most accurate x-cut saw available, then a Radial Arm Saw is still a viable alternative. These are now considered pretty "old hat" (& also somewhat dangerous) in comparison to the newer SCMS, but the sheer weight, size & massive cast iron solidity makes them all but unbeatable in fixed installations. The biggest ones will easily cut over 4" (100mm) depth, and over 600mm crossut. They'll also trench, tenon, dado & even rip with an accuracy that no SCMS can legitimately rival. A 30-40 year old DeWalt Radial Arm will still be as solid & reliable as when it was new. Eminently adjustable and rebuildable, they're engineeded to literally last for decades.
Best models (in my opinion) are the 600mm ones, which have the biggest, baddest, heaviest castings. The likes of the DW1751 (254mm blade) or even better the DW8101 with a 300 or 305mm blade. You can add accessory horizontal drilling chucks, compound mitreing fences, dado heads, even crude (& slightly dangerous) spindle moulding kits.
Plus, one of the biggest bonuses is the ripping capacity: the biggest 600mm x-cut arm models will have an astonishing rip capacity of 100mm x 750mm +/-!! A task & size that's not exactly for the faint hearted. Also, of course, these massive castings will be heavy, too. At some 200kg or so for the big 'uns it's designed for firmly fixed installations.
In regard to vacs, I'd agree that Starmix seem to be a better vac than Festool. I've had 2 Festos. Still have one. One major advantage of Festo/ol is the availability of (bullshit expensive) longlife bags. Just get a Systainer-compatible vac & an Oneida Dust Deputy instead. You'll be lucky to use a single disposable bag a year with this setup.
The biggest advantage of the Starmix alternative is their far superior filtration management when using "open" bags for hazardous dusts (siliceous dusts, gypsum, asbestos etc). All the ancillary hoses, filters, bags etc. seem to be a lot less expensive from Starmix or Nilfisk too. Both Starmix & Nilfisk are specialist German & Danish?? vacuum manufacturers who pour millions of Euros into R&D as an integral part of their corporate identity. Festo/ol, Tooltechnic & Kraenzle are but bit-players in the European & global vacuum marketplace, & it sort of shows....
Kraenzle makes vacs for themselves & Festool. Both Starmix& Nilfisk makes vacs for not only themselves, but just about every other major reputable power tool manufacturer out there.
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Post by holmz on Mar 22, 2020 18:33:49 GMT -5
I am finally onto the bath cabinet with the self isolation deal happening. If one feels an MT55 is needed for sheets, then a lamello Zeta may be a better choice than a DDF-40.
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Post by aas on Mar 23, 2020 1:49:56 GMT -5
I am finally onto the bath cabinet with the self isolation deal happening. If one feels an MT55 is needed for sheets, then a lamello Zeta may be a better choice than a DDF-40. Good to see some long-timers popping back up here!
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Post by holmz on Jul 3, 2020 20:50:20 GMT -5
I am finally onto the bath cabinet with the self isolation deal happening. If one feels an MT55 is needed for sheets, then a lamello Zeta may be a better choice than a DDF-40. Good to see some long-timers popping back up here! Thanks mate (M8)! The Haus Boss reminded me of things I would do when I had time. Covid isolation provided the time. if I could remmeber how to post pictures, or get into the stupid photo hosting with the google account I never use, then I could show something. Basically the bathroom cabinet. In the mean time I have "channeled my inner girl" and ordered 1:24 size doll Haus furniture... as a model of 1" to 1-mm makes the math easy to do a timber frame Haus model. But I might start with a shed maybe 2.7m x 5.5 in a Japanese tea Haus style with the long dimension a full set of doors so I can open it up for working inside of. And probably a roof that lets in light.
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