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Post by Tom Gensmer on Dec 31, 2013 21:21:06 GMT -5
Ok Mafell owners, I need your help!! I am looking at getting some Mafell saws, and would like your input on which saw(s) will best fit my needs.
Ok, here's what I'm using right now: a combination of the Festool TS 75 for breaking down sheet goods, and the Hilti WSC 267E saw for general carpentry. Years ago I had a TS 55. I loved how light it was but felt it was underpowered. I traded up to the TS 75, not so much for its capacity, more for its stronger motor. It generally works ok for my needs, but is a bit overkill for size, the blades are expensive, and I'm not particularly fond of the Festool tracks. The Hilti WSC 267 is an interesting saw, it's a hypoid saw, 7.25" blade (standard North American framing blade size), with integral dust extraction and is compatible with Festool guide tracks. The Hilti is a decent saw for general carpentry, plenty of power and I appreciate the dust extraction, but it is a bit clumsy on the Festool tracks, not as accurate or refined as a plunge cutting track saw, and finally it's discontinued in North America, and Hilti is already running short on parts.
Ok, here are the tasks I frequently perform with circular saws:
--Crosscut 2x lumber with no bevel
--Rip 2x framing lumber with parallel guide
--Rip 1x hardwoods
--Cross cut and rip 4x8 sheet goods, everything from framing (1/2" OSB, CDX, Particleboard, etc…, 3/4" CDX, etc….) to cabinet grade panels (3/4" Baltic Birch, etc…..)
--Cut down 1 3/8" solid core hardwood doors.
These are tasks I perform less frequently, but definitely have a need for:
--Processing aluminum soffit panels
--Make compound cuts in 2x lumber (for instance: Rafters)
--Cross cut and rip 1 3/4" thick LVL headers
--Cut down 4x4 and 6x6 posts (multiple passes ok)
So, going forward, I'm VERY impressed with the Mafell F-tracks, and the saws look spectacular, it's just a matter of figuring out what will best suit my wants/needs. I'm not at all averse to purchasing multiple saws if that is necessary, but if one saw does it all then that's great too. Right now I'm looking at the KSS 300, KSS 400, and MT 55, with the KS 80 in the distance future.
Below are my impressions of each saw, followed by questions. Please, if you have any input on any of these questions or saws, feel free to contribute!!
KSS 300: This looks like a VERY sexy little saw. Nimble, lightweight, low profile. This saw would seem to work great for most of my cross cutting needs, for compound cuts in framing materials I could always break out my worm drive framing saw.
Questions:
--Does the KSS 300 have enough "oomph" to rip 2x framing lumber?
--Compared to the MT 55, what is the cut quality of the KSS 300 when used for breaking down sheet goods for cabinetry?
--How does the KSS 300 "behave" on the F-tracks? Is it as nice as using a plunge cut saw, or are there some compromises?
--Does the KSS 300 have enough power to quickly (production speeds) process sheet good? Or is it mostly best suited to cross cutting 1x materials?
KSS 400: This saw seems like it could be the ideal, mid-sized saw. Uses the same size blades as the MT 55 and TS 55, so the Festool blades are widely available and there is a wide variety of blades available. Presumably more power than the KSS 300. Ability to cut 2x lumber at a 45 degree bevel would match up with 97% of my cross cutting needs.
Questions:
--I know that the KSS 400 has lower watts than the MT 55, but in practice does the MT 55 really feel like it's more powerful?
--Does the KSS 400 have enough "oomph" to rip down 2x framing lumber?
--Compared to the MT 55, what is the cut quality of the KSS 400 when used on the F-tracks, for instance breaking down sheet goods for cabinetry?
--With the track attached, does the KSS 400 feel at all cumbersome? I understand it weighs around 11 lbs, but a tool's balance can dramatically affect how heavy it "feels".
MT-55: Well, from everything I've read, this saw is the best 55mm-class plunge cutting saw on the market. Not many questions here.
So, I guess, ultimately I'm wondering if the KSS 400 would function as a do-everything-equally-well-don't-need-a-plunge-saw saw(replace both TS 75 and Hilti saw), or if I should be getting a MT 55 for breaking down sheet goods (replacement for TS 75), and deciding between the KSS 400 and KSS 300 for cross cutting and ripping (replacement for Hilti).
Thanks for reading, I really look forward to hearing any responses you may have!!
Best Regards,
Tom
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Post by 7 on Dec 31, 2013 21:55:36 GMT -5
I will stick to the ones I have a direct knowledge about.
KSS300 & 400 will function on the F tracks but the huge limitation is they cannot bevel or they will cut into the track. The 300 comes with the flex track and the small attached track which are a lot thinner than the F tracks so it is designed to bevel the edge of the thinner tracks. Even for just straight cuts the MT55 is a lot better- relating to the plunge action primarily, dust extraction is a bit better too. I do use the 300 on the F rails though. With a sharp/ semi sharp blade the KSS300 has plenty of power to cut anything in its depth range. I love it for installing hardwood flooring. Used it the other day with a short F-rail for cutting particle closet shelving, real good for that too.
For most of your first section relating to framing I use standard worm drive circular saws. I have a couple bosch, a dewalt and the new Skil 77LT (like the Skil best). For aluminum soffit & facia I used to use a miter saw and now use a basic custom table with a standard worm drive circular saw with an aluminum blade. Same on posts and all framing lumber.
For all the tasks you list such as baltic birch, particle board, 1 3/8" solid core doors etc etc the MT55 is by far the best. I am guessing similar feel to your TS55 with much better tracks and no power shortage. Cut quality even on low quality melamine is literally perfect even with a dull blade when using the scoring function on the MT55.
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Dec 31, 2013 23:44:27 GMT -5
Thanks VERY much for the feedback 7!
VERY interesting that the KSS saws don't bevel cut on the F-tracks. Not necessarily a problem per se, but good information to have. Based on that information, I'd definitely want a MT 55 for maximum on-track versatility, and supplement with a KSS saw for cross cutting and general carpentry.
That being said, I'm still wondering about the balance/weight of the KSS 300 vs. KSS 400 vs. KSS 80. Part of me wants to get a KSS 400 and expect it to do a bit of everything, the other part says to get a KSS 300 for 80% of my needs (0 bevel), and other saws for the rest of it. I'm glad to hear that the KSS 300 has plenty of power.
For cutting aluminum soft panels, I've been using my MFT/3 and an aluminum cutting blade to great effect, I'd probably just swap a MT 55 for my TS 75.
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Post by GhostFist on Dec 31, 2013 23:51:43 GMT -5
I'm not sober enough to answer this now, it's new years eve. I'll get back to you in the afternoon.
Happy new year!
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Jan 1, 2014 0:10:43 GMT -5
Hi I used to have the hilti wsc265 found it was a nice balance, but the locking shafts used to go and some drive thing always had to get fixed maybe once a year never a problem. but just a pain. Then I was working with someone doing metal stud and was cutting lots of pads to fit inside the panels and the boy I was working with had the festool ts55 and rail so I thought this is much easier than pinging lines and blowing the dust off to see a line. So I went and got myself the hilti rail which worked for me maybe didn't have all the bells and whistles of festool but it did the job. Then the saw went again. So as I wasn't needing I did without for a while then one day I needed and went and got another hilti but got the wsc70 I felt like it had got worse for a joiner that just does things roughly then fine, which isn't me. Then I seen an advert in a wood working magazine that mafell was letting you take the saw on a 30 day trial no cost and they where confident that you wouldn't want to be with out it or the system. I used it sarking a roof lay chipboard flooring cutting 3x2 for the floor, gand not hung pipes, lining boards breaking up sheets etc and ripping some 38mm timber for a little saw it surprised me how well it operated as long as you used the right blade and the timber wasn't wet or it would cut out with the electronics. Towards the end of the 30 days was doing some lining with it and the boy I was working was like you're going to to miss the when it has to go back I thought yep. I didn't get not because I wasn't happy with the saw but I felt it was better suited to internal work and and I do a lot more general work like cutting 2x which I thought the kss400 would be better suited to and is. The kss400 only has an 1100w motor but don't let that put you off it I was having to rip down 45mm timber and it was doing just where the other joiners had the festool and was cutting 18mm ply and it kept cutting out. Saying that though I did try to rip up some soaking treated timber didn't like it and I managed to overload it so had to get sent back to germany but the shop just let us have another one to use whilst mine got fixed which was handy so lesson learned got myself the ksp85 for doing the heavy cut in wet timber overall the kss 400 will do everything within reason I've used it do finishing for convinenne the weight is ok and once you sit it down you don't Evan notice any weight issues also its the same with the kss80 when you're operating it the weight doesn't feel as heavy as you would expect granted it's not as light as the kss300. Also when you take it off the tracks and when you do you gain another 5mm giving a depth of 55mm. For the weight I can pick it and a 6 x 2 and square an end using the cross cut track and not have to sit the timber on a trestles couldn't do in the middle as obviously would jamb I wouldn't let an apprentice do and it is better and safer to use a trestle. I use it for doing the chipboard flooring with the long cross cut rail there is little learning curve to using the long rail it's basically a little weight on the back so the front of the rail is light make sure it's against the stops then lower and cut. I find it saves having to mark a line 2 measurements pick up a guide rail then the saw it's just a case of measure put a mark pick up the saw and guide rail together and cut. The cut will be square and at worst 1mm off. If will easily cut cut lol beams to size I've seen myself cut at full depth ply, but you do have to make sure the blades are in good condition also if your going to be doing a lot of ripping invest in a 12 tooth blade I use a 24 for rips and the 32 for cross cuts I've done loose common rafters with so cutting up 2 using the crosscut track if you know the pitch you can easily set the stops to the required and for either the seat or plumb cut there's no need for be gals to mark every line maybe just one bevel and even then you can mange without when you take it off the track it feel nice and light so handy when I've being cutting sheets on a roof using the f rails same as the mt55cuts on the line no matter the angle the only little fault it has, is when cutting lots of chipboard the dust does make the guard go stiff and needs a shake and occasionally taking off the guard and circlip and cleaning around the shafts. As long as you keep it clean the guard springs down fine for cutting up ply or mdf I think it's fine a DC can be connected you won't get as good of dust collection as using the mt55 but I think the Mt 55 is only needed if cutting a lot of laminate sheets with the scoring function also it doesn't have the know to adjust the fit on the rail nor that o find it loose but you just operate in a nice Smooth action and the cut is straight overall it's an excellent if it was me I'd get the kss400 keep either your hilti or festool until you have funds to buy the kss80 I'll let others tell there experiences of the Mt 55 and the kss80. I've had a shot of them there's the videos that I have done using the kss400. Also another thing with mafell is the team in the mafell videos that demonstrate the tools are all joiners and have then done there journey man they develop the tools saying what works In the field not some engineer making up a prop lem that doesn't need to be solved
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Jan 1, 2014 0:16:22 GMT -5
The kss400 does bevel on the f tracks it's only the kss300 that doesn't
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Post by jalvis on Jan 1, 2014 3:14:46 GMT -5
The kss400 does bevel on the f tracks it's only the kss300 that doesn't Thats what I thought. If I recall from a Video demonstration the KSS80 works on the rails too. Is this true? |
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Jan 1, 2014 6:41:14 GMT -5
Yes the kss80 works on the rail too, it is one of there main points. Basically the kss300 is designed to work at any angle on its own cross cut track and the flexible guide rails, not the f tracks but will work at 90 degrees. Then the mt55 kss400 kss80 are all designed to work on the F rails at any angle. Not sure of the ksp55 it might be but might not but I would get the kss400 instead of a ksp 55 as the cross cut track is so handy. The ksp85 can be used on the F tracks at 90 and will cut on line. If you want to cut at angle you still can on the rails but not using the same groove if has a second groove which allows you to cut at ane angle without cutting into the track, but you will need to place the f tacks slightly off the line so the blade lands on the line. The big carpenter saws same as the ksp85 has to grooves and is operated the same way, but there 0 point on its base is where the blade pivots at angle and will always cut on line at angle on the 0 point. Then the ksp85 has offset angle marking but I usually just make sure I watch the blade. Also the mt55 and kss80 ks88 has a sliding 0 point. We all know about the F rails, but mafell do another rail system for the carpentry machines but the tools do not slide on it, but off. They are used by clamping parallel off the line so the base of the saw slides on the timber, you fit the parallel guide on upside down which has two holes and a connector fits there and onto the rails. Then you slide the saw along the guide rails till its on the mark and tighten. They maybe handy for birds mouth cuts if doing a lot as the saw is sat on the timber you don't loose that depth of cut like you do on the f rails. I don't have as I don't do that often enough and if do just use a straight edge and screw and clamp down then use the parallel guides same as before
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Jan 1, 2014 13:52:06 GMT -5
Wow, great info fellas!
So, it sound like I'd probably want a KSS 400 and possibly a MT 55cc. This mostly depends on the cut quality of the KSS 400 for building cabinetry.
On the F-tracks, what is the quality of cut of the KSS 400? If it is at least equal to the Festool saws, I'd probably just go ahead and order a KSS 400 as my jack-of-all-trades saw, and down the road pick up a MT 55cc for ultra precision work. If the KSS 400 cuts nicely, but not quite as nice as my current setup, then I'm in the situation of deciding whether to first buy the KSS 400 to replace my Hilti saw, or the MT 55cc to replace my TS 75.
Wrightwoodwork, it sounds like you have a good amount of experience with the KSS 400, what do you think of the cut quality in regards to cabinetry or furniture making? Other than a different action from a rear-pivoting plunge cut track saw, does it have the same cut quality or is it slightly less stable?
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Post by jalvis on Jan 1, 2014 14:01:02 GMT -5
After reading your email and the responses to this thread I can tell you really want the KSS300, but my advice is in contrast.
Like most things one tool doesn't solve all the problems one encounters on the job site. My recommendation would be a combination of two saws.
MT55
KSS80
Naturally you will need tracks, clamps, and joining piece for the rails.
Personally I think every carpenter should have a track saw. Without one you really limit your potential and making a simple task dangerous or difficult. I think with the compatible rails, the KSS and depth ability of the 80, and the additional power and nimbleness of the MT55 all your needs will be surpassed. With this combination I doubt you will miss the Festool track or saw.
Unless your doing flooring and quick short cuts often then the KSS300 is best left for another day. Buy based on 90% of your work and add tools for the remaining as work comes in. You probably can use your miter saw for the tasks that the 300 would be most handy anyways.
Keep in mind the 80 can be used off the rail just like your skilsaw which means one less tool to carry.
The Erika is a big item on my list. The pull function would be a great addition to any shop but its a large pill to swallow unless your shop space is limited and a portable shop is the only choice. The Erika is all about speed for me. The ability to set angles and depths quickly and make a pull cut thats safe is a huge advantage. Although the time saved has to justify the cost and I haven't reached that point yet. For the cost of the Erika one can get a good sliding table saw. It really comes down to site work and shop space.
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Jan 1, 2014 15:18:19 GMT -5
The kss400 is a general purpose saw it will cut every bit as straight as a ts55 it will cut mdf fine and ply sheets but as it doesn't have the scoring function of the mt55 it isn't as good for laminated sheets I've only ever used it with 32 tooth blade on cutting conti board the bottom is nice and clean but the top sometimes
I got have little chips you can do the scoring Action but doesn't always work as the mt55of sets the blade by 0.1mm and the blade when it's coming up doesn't touch the top melamine giving a crisp cut. The higher tooth or special blades might help. It will maybe be fine for doing on off cabinets out of ply or mdf. Melamine if you're lucky might get away with a special blade but can't guarantee if I was doing cabinets I would invest in a mt55 like I say it's a general purpose saw. The mt55 is better suited to sheet goods I've used the ts55 in the past can't say I noticed it being noticeably better if you're doing a lot of cabinets the mt55. If doing lots of 1st fix joinery then then the kss400. Then as jalvis says I would then get the kss80. I think a kss mt55 would be a good invention as that way you get the best of both worlds.
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Jan 1, 2014 15:24:29 GMT -5
Hmm, interesting thoughts jalvis, thank you! You are correct in that I really would like some variety of KSS saw, just really struggling with which one, plus struggling with the question of whether a KSS-style saw can replace a plunge cutting saw, or if they are complementary.
I DEFINITELY agree with your assertion to buy something that will match 90% of your work, then fill in the gaps. While I occasionally build additions and the like, most of my work involves interior trim work and light framing (cross cutting 2x4's and 2x6's at 0 bevel, ripping down 2x material). I'm used to working with "standard" sidewinder and worm drive saws in the 10-13lb range, so the KSS 400 would fit nicely in that range (11lbs), and I am still extremely intrigued by the KSS 300 (7 lbs).
So, one scenario would be to use a KSS 300 for most small remodel projects where I'm just cross cutting and ripping 2x materials and breaking down sheet goods. If I need to cut rafters, LVL's, or more rough carpentry, I plan ahead and bring my framing saw to the job (or a KSS 80).
Another scenario is to use the KSS 400 in a manner similar to the above scenario, but with the added ability to make a wider variety of cuts (beveled cuts in 2x materials, LVL's, etc…), albeit with slightly increased weight.
From what I am hearing, it sounds like I should really be looking at getting a KSS saw AND a MT 55cc and treating them as complementary saws. In that case, I'll probably plan on using the MT 55cc as a traditional track saw, specializing in precision panel cuts, bevel cuts, etc…., and then get a KSS saw for general carpentry and nice (bot not necessarily furniture grade) track work, for instance breaking down sheet goods for general carpentry.
Hm….. Well, I guess for now I'll probably plan on getting into a MT 55cc to replace my TS 75, and continue to research whether to go with a KSS300 or 400.
jalvis, the KSS80 looks MAGNIFICENT!! One thought I had was, rather than get the KSS 400 and have it be a mid-sized jack of all trades, the alternative would be to get a KSS 300 for most of my needs, and supplement it with a KSS 80 for larger pieces or when I really need some power.
Those Erika saws look incredible! I spoke with David from Timberwolf the other day, it sounds like the 70 is dual voltage but that the 85 is 230v-only. I'd probably be looking at the 70 for my needs. On that note, I heard a rumor from a local retailer that he recently filled out a survey from Festool asking about what customers would want from a job site table saw, which presumably means that Festool is (eventually) looking to bring either the Precisio and/or CMS TS system to North America. I've used the CMS/TS 75 plate, it's ok but you definitely make some compromises. The CS 50 is the perfect size for me but I worry about it being underpowered, the CS 70 has plenty of power but is too big to fit in my van. Which leads me to the Erika 70. Plenty of capacity and power, but still (relatively) light and compact enough to fit in my van.
Thanks so much for all of your input!! I guess right now I'm looking at:
1. Get into the MT 55cc and F-track system. I'll read and post in the Accessories section, but initially I'll plan on getting a F 160 track, a F 110 or another F160 for joining and breaking down sheet goods, Connecting piece, pair of Screw Clamps, Angle Fence, and possibly the Parallel Guide.
2. Get a KSS 300 or 400 for my daily wood cutting tasks, POSSIBLY a KSS 80 but I worry it would be too heavy and bulky for just daily cutting tasks like cutting 2x material to length, etc….
3. Look at getting into a Erika 70
4. If I haven't already, look at getting into the KSS 80 to fill out my sawing needs.
Wow guys, I'm VERY impressed with the wealth of knowledge you've brought to me. I'll start posting up tips and jigs as I have time, I hope I can help to contribute back to the community! :-)
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Post by jalvis on Jan 1, 2014 15:33:30 GMT -5
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Jan 1, 2014 15:42:26 GMT -5
wrightwoodwork, you mentioned a KSS version of the MT 55 as being an ideal. I was just watching the Mafell video for their MF 26, and at 2:08 it shows the saw on a KSS-style track. Is this something we might see on a future version of the MT 55cc? BTW, how old is the MT 55cc? Is it due for an update (KSS functionality?  ?), or is it a relatively recent release? 2:08-2:35 jalvis, that's a fantastic value on those Bosch guide tracks! I'll have to see how they compare to buying from Timberwolf (figuring in taxes, shipping, and customs). |
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Post by GhostFist on Jan 1, 2014 16:10:49 GMT -5
Currently I own the kss 300 and the mt55 as far as mafell saws goes. I love my 300 to death and it's good in a pinch for framing, but if you're doing a larger framing job or decks or something along that nature I'd go with the 400 for added capacity and power. I think for a all day everyday general north american type framing gig the Kss 80 may be too heavy to lug around just for nipping 2x4's though it would be pretty badass for gang cutting. Note the difference in the plunge mechanisms for the kss saws and the mt55. The mt55 operates similar the festool's ts saws, but the kss saws use a parallel rise and fall system. Instead of pivoting into the cut, the saw unit drops straight down into the cut and the depth is controlled with a lever. The kss 80 has improved controls on this but PERHAPS WOODIE COULD ELABORATE MORE (nudge).
My recommendations based on what you said you do mostly would be a kss 400 followed by an mt55 for fine cabinet work. One thing I wish they'd bring out for the 55 and other saws is that new parallel fence shown with the 80 and the mf 26 that can accommodate rips thinner than the width of the saw's base. Simple bute handy looking fence IMO.
The 80 is gonna be good for you if you end up cutting larger posts, thick hardwood, heavy roof rafters, and large joists. It would just rip through wooden I beams without the need for a jig and will do it fast and accurately. But if you're not doing a lot of these materials you're looking at double the cost and double the weight over the Kss400. I drool over that kss80 but can't justify it for my needs right now as much as I envey its sexiness.
Just some food for thought, hope that helps
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?), or is it a relatively recent release?