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Post by aas on May 1, 2019 5:33:15 GMT -5
I could do with a small saw for lugging up flights of stairs, obvious choice is the Erika 60E - add to my growing Mafell collection!... and use my existing Erika 85 accessories - wrong!.. none of them fit!.. not even an MFA equivalent, big fail! Add the niggle that the buttons are on the left instead of the right like the 85 - I really don't want to be fumbling around to turn it off.
So the obvious alternative is the Festool CS50, which despite trying not to have too much Festool, they do have some very good tools that I wouldn't want to give up. Obvious downside with the CS50 is the weird 5 point torx style hole in the blade - I don't like this sort of 'lock in', which is getting more and more common, but at least there are alternative blade manufacturers.
Otherwise as a comparison, both available with or without legs/stand, the Festool wins here as they are folding, the Mafell stand seems a bit cumbersome. Both weigh in at around 21kg. The Mafell wins on depth of cut, the Festool on length of pull-stroke, although both are within the limits of what I would need (small interior trim, flooring, etc.) More accessories available for the Festool, even if pricey. I would not really need them, but good to know the 'site' saw can grow if need be.
Has any got or used either or both, give me any positives or negatives for either please?
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Post by chippiegary on May 1, 2019 12:54:42 GMT -5
I have the festool cs50 , I’ve had it about ten years and I love it , don’t own an Erika sadly so can’t compere . I use mine as you say for finish work and flooring etc , for that purpose it is great . Accurate and very lightweight /portable , I have the full kit “ side/end extensions and the excellent sliding carriage . Downsides for me are depth of cut , and the star lock blades . Power wise I don’t push it too hard I suppose two inch oak is about the max for me , having the right blade for the job is very important in my opinion “ use the ripping blade on two inch oak “ and with that in mind have had no problems . Dust extraction is ok not outstanding but good enough if it broke /had stolen I would replace it with the same “ although not seen the newer version apparently you can’t operate without blade guard , might be wrong on that if not would make cutting rebates difficult 😩 could be way off the mark with that ? All in all great saw in my opinion hope this helps 👍also if you have any of the festool cms stuff “ router table etc everything is interchangeable , Erika does look very cool though
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Post by Tom Gensmer on May 1, 2019 22:17:52 GMT -5
I've looked at the CS50 as well and it looks like a nifty little saw. I don't like the proprietary blade system.
That being said, the lack of parts support in North America is a major issue for me, never mind no warranty support. Aas, I forget where you are located? Is this an issue for you?
I own a ERIKA 70 and simply adore it, but I can see situations where it might be a little too much for certain projects, particularly projects on the second floor, basement, or in condo/apartment/multifamily situations. For those quick "In-Out" jobs, working on the floor might be ok, otherwise I could always set up the 60 on a MFT/MINI.
Bummer that the Erika 70/85 accessories aren't cross-compatible with the ERIKA 60. That being said, if I were running an ERIKA 60 I suspect that I'd mostly be using it for flooring and light trim work (casing, base, shoe,), where the basic scope of delivery would suffice.
How does the ERIKA 60 pricing compare to its larger siblings?
I could see a scenario where a ERIKA 60 could make a nice companion to a 70/85. For instance, if a 70/85 is set up with the sliding table for crosscutting, it could be nice to have a ERIKA 60 set up for quickie rips. Or, have the 70/85 set up for repeat ripping operations, with a 60 set up nearby for quickie crosscuts.....
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Post by aas on May 2, 2019 0:48:03 GMT -5
Thanks for your replies... pricing is about 1000 € plus tax for either of them.
If I can't remove the blade guard and drop the riving knife on the CS50, that might be a deal breaker.
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Post by chippiegary on May 2, 2019 5:24:22 GMT -5
Got an idea henrun may have a cs50 if so if he chimes in his tool reviews are legendary 👍
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Post by bicycleclip on May 2, 2019 17:23:33 GMT -5
I’ve got an Erika 85 with all the trimmings and it is pretty awkward beast to move around. The weight which is about 35kg / 75 lbs doesn’t look that big on paper but it’s held far away from your body when you are carrying it, especially if you moving through narrow doorways or up stairs. The chap I bought it from was selling it for exactly this reason, and he had already bought an Erika 60 as a replacement and was very happy with it.
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Post by aas on May 4, 2019 12:22:47 GMT -5
Got an idea henrun may have a cs50 if so if he chimes in his tool reviews are legendary 👍 I'm hoping he'll pop by and give his thoughts...
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Post by henrun on May 7, 2019 15:09:32 GMT -5
Hi guys!
I'll give it my best shot. I have long term experience with the Festool CS70, CS50 and short term experience with the Erika 60E which I currently have. A colleague has the CS50 so I still use it from time to time. They will actually be under the same roof in the workshop when we consolidate our stuff in the new workshop.
Without knowing what to aim for in a mini review / comparison I am going to wing it and not reach a conclusion but here it goes...
Even though the CS70 is a "better" saw I am going to partially ignore it for several reasons: it is semi-portable and more stationary than portable if fitted with all the extras. Even with all the extras it is a "light" semi stationary saw and as such potentially the worst compromise. But it would do a great job in the right, small shop. If I would go for this type of saw I would probably go for the Erika 85 if I were to do it all over again. I am sure the Erika 70 is great and compares favourably to the CS70 but I would always feel I should have gone for the Erika 85 if I got me the 70.
Now with a Felder K700s on order and due to arrive soon I feel a really small table saw suits me much better.
The CS50 is a great little saw. Agile and has good power for being so small. Drop the legs and it is very light. It too has a good deal of add ons but if you boil it down to what you need/use it for the add ons might not even make sense. If you want to push sheet goods through it you need to build your own outfeed table if you want any accuracy. I think it is too flimsy for sheet goods and honestly much prefer track saws on site for this.
Disadvantage of the CS50 is proprietary blade mount. Sucks but good deals can be had on blades at times.
Advantages of Festool is that some of the accessories are compatible with other Festool stuff, like the MFT3 and the CS70. But the parallel guide is not compatible with the CS70 and I can't really see why you would have both saws anyway. I actually did at one time. I ended up selling both when I moved in to the "old" workshop. I sold them both because I could not decide which to keep (!) and that's how I eventually ended up with the Erika 60E.
If you have the CMS-GE and the router kit or the other modules you can use some of the accessories with them as well and save a pretty penny. This is perhaps the strongest argument for the CS50. Especially the sliding table which is expensive. In this scenario it would be hard to choose the Erika 60E - even more so if you have a small shop/space.
In a way I kind of think the best way to go for me would have been to keep the CS50 since I now have the CMS-GE unit with sliding table for the OF2200. If I had kept the CS50 I could have used the sliding table and fence and use them on both tables. But, back then I didn't think I would get the TF2200 (OF2200 table mounted kit).
In action the CS50 is pretty nice and is in most cases similar to the Erika 60E.
What about the Erika 60E?
It has a smaller table and is similar in weight. The folding stand is a pain to use - literally, I have the scars to prove it. To this day I haven't figured out how to fold it down for storage. It is always ready to lash out and chip away at the shins and I have come close to throwing it in the dumpster more than one time. I only keep it until I have built a stand for it that connects to my other tables which will work as outfeed tables.
I decided on the Erika 60E when I got the chance to play with one at the local pushers nest. They just got one in as a demo unit and they had the CS50 there as well. I have worked with the Erika many years ago and was not aware of the brand at that time. I just thought it a great saw and a strange name.
Build quality is very good and in use it is nice to handle. Power is very good for being so small but not sure if it bests the CS50, I would say they are equal. Both saws have their flimsy knobs and handles but both work quite well and both feel safe for handling small pieces and ripping thin stock. I sometimes rip grooves and trim for LED fittings and often thin stock at narrow settings and I think both the CS50 and the Erika are great for this.
On the other hand I kind of like having the Erika 60E as a totally separate entity: limited accessories and always at hand for the saw. I don't have the table extension for the Erika but I have the sliding table and the parallel fence and an extension for it. Even in the new workshop where the large Felder K700s saw will arrive first week in June I feel the Erika 60 still has a place.
Working with small pieces for building furniture as well as on site trim work I feel the Erika is really nice to use and the simplicity of the saw appeals to me. I also like that it is quiet and that I can get different blades for it quite easily - and cost effective.
I haven't used it as a flooring saw for which it is said to excel. But I haven't use the CS50 for that either. For flooring I have mostly used the KSS300 and a mitre saw and later on the KSS40 18m.
Summing it up you can't really go wrong with the CS50. But I somehow like the Erika for being such a simple saw. The pull function on the saws work well. The CS50 feels sloppy but is accurate. The Erika is a bit more finicky before you get the hang of it and for ripping longer stock the CS50 has a longer table. But both work well for trim and such.
I will hang on to the Erika 60E. I am not sure I will get the side extension for it as it kind of defeats the purpose of a small stock saw. I would have gotten it if they still had the little router available. You can never have too many routers and one more setup for a specific task would be nice. Rumor has it that a new smaller router is about to happen and if so I might get me the extension table eventually - given that the router kit will be provided for the new router - and given that the router will surface eventually...
I use the Erika for small stuff. Anything larger than what the Erika 60E can do comfortably will go on the Felder in the workshop. I think I will give away the Erika stand for free or perhaps build a box to house the Tormek sharpener on it. I don't like it with the Erika mounted, it is the wrong height for all the tables in the workshop but with a custom stand it will be nice to have around and when I don't use it I store it on a roller stand and it rolls under a shelf by a wall and isn't in the way.
Neither saw is cheap and the Erika is quite limited but for what it does I prefer it slightly over the CS50. I almost prefer it because it is limited.
Not sure if this answers any questions but they are both great saws. The limitations of the Erika are somewhat offset by the blade which is an easy to find size and that the saw itself is a great little companion. I honestly don't miss the CS50 much - even though I have absolutely nothing against it. I could perhaps do without the Erika as well but I have enjoyed every time I have used it for those small tasks...
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Post by henrun on May 7, 2019 15:11:40 GMT -5
Since I will be in the workshop all week I could perhaps haul the colleagues CS50 from one floor down up to the new workshop and take a few side by side shots of them both.
I might get that Mafell shop stand done this week as I will need the Erika a few days when I am between large saws in the new workshop.
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Post by henrun on May 7, 2019 15:14:41 GMT -5
I could do with a small saw for lugging up flights of stairs, obvious choice is the Erika 60E - add to my growing Mafell collection!... and use my existing Erika 85 accessories - wrong!.. none of them fit!.. not even an MFA equivalent, big fail! Add the niggle that the buttons are on the left instead of the right like the 85 - I really don't want to be fumbling around to turn it off.
So the obvious alternative is the Festool CS50, which despite trying not to have too much Festool, they do have some very good tools that I wouldn't want to give up. Obvious downside with the CS50 is the weird 5 point torx style hole in the blade - I don't like this sort of 'lock in', which is getting more and more common, but at least there are alternative blade manufacturers.
Otherwise as a comparison, both available with or without legs/stand, the Festool wins here as they are folding, the Mafell stand seems a bit cumbersome. Both weigh in at around 21kg. The Mafell wins on depth of cut, the Festool on length of pull-stroke, although both are within the limits of what I would need (small interior trim, flooring, etc.) More accessories available for the Festool, even if pricey. I would not really need them, but good to know the 'site' saw can grow if need be.
Has any got or used either or both, give me any positives or negatives for either please?
I think you hit all the major points.
I think the Mafell works great without the stand but the Festool works great too without the legs. Dust collection is a little bit better on Mafell too. The Mafell angle fence is a bit sturdier than the Festool WA and I think it locks down better.
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Post by chippiegary on May 7, 2019 17:23:52 GMT -5
Like I said legendary
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Post by aas on May 8, 2019 1:48:21 GMT -5
I think you hit all the major points.
I think the Mafell works great without the stand but the Festool works great too without the legs. Dust collection is a little bit better on Mafell too. The Mafell angle fence is a bit sturdier than the Festool WA and I think it locks down better.
Thanks Henrun! Doesn't seem to be much between them, not an easy choice, and nowhere I can go to see them. I was leaning towards the CS50 for the built-in stand, the power controls on the handle (which are perfect for quick cuts), longer pull stroke, and accessories to upgrade if need be (although that is not the idea.)
The Erika does not appear to have a Cuprex motor, but is still slightly more powerful - I'm not sure the extra 10mm depth of cut is a deal breaker, but as such the lower power of the CS50 is not really a problem, it's cutting less material!
The pull stroke on the Erika is very short, some engineered wood flooring boards are getting up towards 280 / 300mm, I think this is the deal breaker - the moment I need to add a sliding carriage, and make or buy a separate stand to stand the saw on, etc., it is no longer a quick, light, portable unit. Having a sturdier fence is super important, as is dust collection - I'm going to have to re-think all this!
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Post by Tom Gensmer on May 8, 2019 11:43:00 GMT -5
I wouldn't want to do it all of the time, but for the odd situation where my Erika 70 can't quite complete a crosscut on a board (typically when cutting at a 45 degree miter), a workaround is to lower the blade, start the motor, raise the blade up into the work, then pull. This can add several inches to crosscutting capacity. Again, if I was making that cut all day I've find a different solution, but if it's just once in awhile it can be handy.
Obligatory disclaimer about safety, I'm not necessarily recommending this practice, watch your fingers, etc.......
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Post by henrun on May 8, 2019 13:51:25 GMT -5
aas: if you are going to use it for flooring then the CS50 is the more sensible choice. For parquetry I do think the Erika is better but with those wider boards the crosscut capacity can be the tipping point. Personally I prefer using the KSS saws for this anyway so for me it is not a concern. I don't think either saw is really suited for using the sliding table since it makes the saw more unwieldy for transportation and on site work. But it is useful of course.
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Post by aas on May 8, 2019 15:06:37 GMT -5
aas: if you are going to use it for flooring then the CS50 is the more sensible choice. Flooring is one of the tasks it will be used for. To be fair, most flooring is around the 200mm mark, it would be fine with the Erika 60, although I do have a customer from Stockholm who wants the whole flat re-done with 280mm wide flooring, as well as wall cladding in 'old' reclaimed spruce. I've already used the KSS40 for a couple of flooring jobs (as well as a near 300m² decking job), it is an excellent saw (when it's not beeping at me!). I'll also need to be doing some on-site 'fake' beams in reclaimed spruce - 45 degree mitred corner joins etc., this is going to be easier and more accurate on a small table saw than with the KSS or one of my plunge saws. Lots of funny angles in the flat as it is on the join of two runs of building, and a lot of detail work, niches for TV etc, fake beams for lighting, cladding concrete beams to make them look like old wood beams, and almost top floor (there is a lift in this building though).
The Erika 85 will stay setup in the workshop, I want something small, light and cheaper(!) than can be left on-site. I'm still leaning towards the CS50 - it's got T-tracks for clamping work to as well!.. but it's still the cross cut capability and fold up legs that it is winning it for me.
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