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Post by henrun on Apr 1, 2018 15:14:17 GMT -5
I guess it is inevitable but it is a rapid development for sure. Just saw that Metabo now offers 8Ah LiHD batteries and have also revamped the 5,5Ah in a new casing - cosmetic change only? Interestingly enough (and now I do feel cheated) the compact batteries are now 4ah, same size as the 3,1/3,5Ah. I sold off some excess tools and the 3,1 batteries and I have three 3.5's. Well, it is the new largers cells but apart from that there is not much of a difference between the 3,5 and 4 in use. I think Metabo has "old style" 4ah batteries being sold with drills so there might be confusing for the customer and well worth taking a look at what you are getting when offered a package deal on them machines. I got me one 7Ah battery and I can't really see use for much higher Ah in my case (except, perhaps for the Vac I ordered) as I think the charging times will be more of a limiting factor than runtime in the end. I almost think I'd rather have two 5.5's or a 7 and a 5,5 for the vac over a single 8Ah - or even two 8's. I thought the 7Ah barely hit the market but apparently it was a swift transition to 8. I don't complain, really. Sell me a few 7's at a heavily discounted price!  What they really need to bring now is power adapters that slot in and provided corded option alongside the battery platform. |
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Post by jm on Apr 29, 2018 17:05:23 GMT -5
They switched cells as well, first generation LiHD was 20700 cells (20mm diameter, 70mm length) to a 21700 (21mm diameter) in the second gen.
7Ah or 8Ah, I doubt you'll notice the extra runtime, but they're claiming these new packs will do 3200 watts. That's 75% more power than us 120v suckers can get out of standard household outlets!
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Post by aas on Apr 30, 2018 0:54:08 GMT -5
Just ordered two of the new 8,0ah batts with drill and charger for 360€ - seems crazy cheap to me... don't need the drill so I'll sell it.
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Post by rizzoa13 on Apr 30, 2018 19:40:30 GMT -5
Can I ask where you bought your 8.0s? I looked and couldn’t find anything reasonable.
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Post by Eoj on Apr 30, 2018 20:25:14 GMT -5
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Post by huntsgemein on Apr 30, 2018 21:09:59 GMT -5
What they really need to bring now is power adapters that slot in and provided corded option alongside the battery platform. Henrik, I doubt it's ever going to happen soon or even at all. There's very little incentive for Metabo to do it. With such a mature, well-sorted battery platform already in place, why would they provide a substitute? It's been tried (several times) before, with historically less than stellar results from a marketing perspective. In the nineties or perhaps early noughties (or maybe even earlier - I can't recall), there was an effort from one of the mainstream players. Who, I don't remember. Makita? DeWalt? Hitachi Koki? One of the reasons I can't recall the details is probably the short-lived nature of the "experiment". It wasn't successful. Reasons for this failure could be manifold: eating into or eroding profitable battery sales, changing technology's (battery chemistry's) innate redundancy, lack of market acceptance, pricing issues (I seem to recall they were expensive) & the fundamental incompatibility of the consumer's expectation of corded "performance" with the compromised power output of a mains-powered cordless motor. AEG/Rothenberger co-operatively released mains adapters for their previous-gen plumbing tools (drills & swagers I believe). Again, failure! Now DeWalt. But check the differences: DW doesn't have (as yet) a superior battery platform like the Sanyo-Panasonic cells used by Bobby Bosch, Metabo & it's marketing allies (Mafell, Rothenberger, Collomix & that Canadian/American Grinder company whose name I invariably forget). For DeWalt, their mains adapters are a legitimate SUBSTITUTE for an inadequate battery platform. Plus, consider the types of tools currently offered with mains adapters. Semi-stationary workshop & construction SCMS, table saws etc. Realistically, of what uniquely utilitarian use would a corded/cordless drill be? Or an SDS? Or a Fes-toy like range of palm sanders? For the majority of current cordless tools out there, there's a perfectly adequate (usually better-performing) & less expensive mains equivalent tool already offered. Why would any manufacturer wish to cannibalise their corded tool sales in this way? The marketing model just doesn't (in my opinion anyway) work. For the current Metabo range of tools that might actually benefit from the addition of a battery-format mains adapter: the new cordless vac, the table saw and.......that's about it. There's already 2 separate battery "interfaces" to accommodate. 18v & 2x18V. Sure, a new, bigger, more powerful 250 or even 300mm SCMS could benefit from a 2 x18v & mains power, but development is long, costly (even using the current fixed-speed EC 9" grinder motor) & would probably cannibalise sales of their current mains-powered models. Fuss-tool, as a smaller manufacturer, has wisely tested the waters by trialling what is arguably one of the lesser usefully dual-powered tool ranges (sanders), but which is within their current sphere of particular expertise. Their use of yet another "unique" style of battery interface is likewise a wise choice too. It prevents idiots attempting to power much higher drain devices from this rather weak, lightweight & low-powered mains supply. That's the thing. High drain devices - saws, grinders, SDS etc. have power demands that are (often) incompatible with lower powered devices. Hence the requirement for either bigger or doubled battery power in many of them. DeWalt currently offers a max battery storage capacity of a pretty miserable 3.0AH (@ 54 or 60v output). Hence the need for a mains adapter in high-current demand "cordless" devices like their saws. Metabo by contrast offers much greater capacity from their 10-cell batteries. They even forecast a year or two ago that max capacity will increase to 4.5 & 9.0 AH within a few months time! With the new 4.5 & 9.0 AH batteries (& presumably bigger again in coming years) and high current compatible cell technologies, the need for mains adapters is essentially side-stepped. Metabo's current EC motors allow for near-mains (or even better) performance WITHOUT the added inconvenience of having to operate within the range of a mains outlet. I believe that DeWalt's dual powered devices are successful due in part to the comparative inadequacy of their current battery platform rather than the intrinsic merit or convenience provided by their dual alternative power choices. Metabo instead offers a pretty clear choice between more than adequately performing mains & cordless equivalents. |
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Post by thehandyman on Apr 30, 2018 23:56:58 GMT -5
I wouldn't call DeWalt's batteries inadequate. They are using 20700 and 21700 cells now. A 3.0ah with 21700 cells just released, with voltage rounded down to 3.0ah.
The new 21700 cell 12.0ah battery is being released in a few months (same size as current 9.0ah 20700 cell due to tighter cell packing). A 15.0ah will be here around year end.
Now, Makita is behind.
Rhe FlexVolt miter is excellent but worse on mains power. Less smooth and powerful than battery. They offered as an option to make people more comfortable with it being cordless. I never use it corded. That's the current only tool in 120v.
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Post by aas on May 1, 2018 0:02:33 GMT -5
Can I ask where you bought your 8.0s? I looked and couldn’t find anything reasonable. foxtool.de |
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Post by aas on May 1, 2018 0:04:01 GMT -5
Good price!.. havent seen that price in Europe... you pay more for your Mafell, but a lot less for Makita and other main stream brands. |
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Post by henrun on May 1, 2018 5:22:01 GMT -5
Aas: 8 Ah on a drill !!!
I'd wear myself out before batteries are depleted... The new 4Ah would be the maximum for me for weight and run time. I have one 3,5Ah battery and run time is excellent on the A18m. The other are well used 3,1Ah batteries that are still doing great.
Charging time for the 8Ah? I assume you got the new charger that chucks more A into the battery and reduces charging time?
Huntsgemein: nice dig at a market sit rep and I agree with the assessment!
When I wrote that Metabo needs to get some adapters out for providing corded/cordless I should have added that it would only be necessary for a very limited range of tools.
A Vac is definitely one of them. Perhaps the one I would find most useful on a dual corded/cordless platform. Like the Makita.
Table saw and Mitre saw, for sure, adding the convenience of cordless to the job site while being able to run corded if an outlet is free and at hand is not a bad choice.
Other than those three high drain tools I am not sure which machines would really benefit from adapters. Perhaps a track saw for ripping (especially in wet) timber.
Weighting the needs and benefits to have corded/cordless option in the same machine I'd say:
Great to have:
Vac
Portable Tablesaw
Mitre saw
Tracksaw (think the MT55cc doing both corded and cordless!)
Would not mind but not as important:
Sabre saw
Router
Sander
Jigsaw (perhaps)
Out of those two columns I do think that the Mitre saws from Metabo do really well with the single 18V battery for most use so with a 7/8 Ah battery you do get a ridiculous amount of cutting already. With the 216mm blade size on mine I think it hits the sweetspot for convenience and longevity on a single battery and single charge.
If I had a 254mm / 10" blade I think I would like to have a battery/corded option. I have a 10" Metabo slider which is a decent saw (and cheap!) so I would not replace it unless there was some added benefit like having cord/less option.
A tracksaw that does both (single) 18V battery and corded would be the bees knees for sure!
The Makita 18V router shows that it is possible to make a great little router with a single 18V battery and a great run time.
I run mostly cordless at this point and I am still not at the point where I feel switching/charging batteries are too much of a nuisance. Three different chargers are more of a nuisance.
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Post by huntsgemein on May 1, 2018 11:40:54 GMT -5
Good price!.. havent seen that price in Europe... you pay more for your Mafell, but a lot less for Makita and other main stream brands. In fact, it's a great price! I'm jealous as buggery. My "local bloke" is charging those sort of prices for well out-of-date original 6.2AH Li-HDs! He's still trying to sell me some positively neolithic 2.0AH old-style lithiums at a "special" price of $99! Needless to say, I've removed him from my preferred supplier & Christmas card lists... That's the trouble of living in a small market with no opportunity for private import (of batteries anyway). We get ripped off. Hell, Metabo Oz don't even import 5-cell batteries any more. Meaning we're stuck with using 7.0 Li-HDs or old defunct stock even in the lightest of tools. The same will presumably apply to the 8.0s & 9.0s if or when they eventually arrive too. They're still supplying some old style/new tools (drills, rattlers, grinders) with 5.2s! Maybe, if they're smart, Metabo Oz will skip the 8.0AH generation altogether.... They'll be a redundant capacity in a few months anyway! In the meantime, I'd dearly love to have access to ANY 5-cell Li-HD battery. Of ANY capacity. At the moment I'm overworking the single, solo 3.1AH battery that I'd managed to "sneak" in a couple of years ago on my smaller tools. That & a half-dozen or so 6.2s are all that I currently share among my higher drain devices: Mafell saw, SCMS, LED Flood & 36v grinder. The latter chews through charges in these "old" batteries way too rapidly in heavy cutting work like railway irons, concrete etc. Metabo Australia aren't doing themselves any favours here. Just as (anecdotally) in North America, the delay in adoption of newer technologies & models is crippling sales, market penetration & (in my case anyway) customer loyalty. It's hard to take any supplier seriously when all that's on offer is decidedly outmoded technology, especially when offered at ludicrously inflated rather than runout pricing. In fact, it's just this sort of contemptuous treatment of customers (cynical price gouging, deliberate, repeated & intentional delay of releases that are freely available in other markets for months or even years) that has lead to Fuss-Tool's virtual demise as a credible supplier of power tools in Australia. Or maybe I should just illegally import my own private battery supply? |
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Post by aas on May 1, 2018 13:27:03 GMT -5
Just import illegally!.. some good deals for the 4,0ah's at the moment too...
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Post by calidecks on May 13, 2018 1:32:08 GMT -5
They switched cells as well, first generation LiHD was 20700 cells (20mm diameter, 70mm length) to a 21700 (21mm diameter) in the second gen. 7Ah or 8Ah, I doubt you'll notice the extra runtime, but they're claiming these new packs will do 3200 watts. That's 75% more power than us 120v suckers can get out of standard household outlets! jm, am I reading your post correctly? Is the 7Ah 3200 watts as well as the 8Ah? Thanks! |
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Post by aas on May 13, 2018 1:53:28 GMT -5
Yeah, strange package - cheapest way to buy two 8 Ah's though... One is currently on the KSS40, I intend to get the MT55BL18 at some point. The drill supplied is an SB LT - I have no need for it, very front heavy. Once sold, it will the 8 Ah's even cheaper! |
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Post by jm on May 17, 2018 21:13:46 GMT -5
They switched cells as well, first generation LiHD was 20700 cells (20mm diameter, 70mm length) to a 21700 (21mm diameter) in the second gen. 7Ah or 8Ah, I doubt you'll notice the extra runtime, but they're claiming these new packs will do 3200 watts. That's 75% more power than us 120v suckers can get out of standard household outlets! jm, am I reading your post correctly? Is the 7Ah 3200 watts as well as the 8Ah? Thanks! I don't think the 20700s will put out enough amps to support 3200w, I'd be willing to bet that 3200w rating applies onto to the newer 8Ah batteries, but regardless, I don't think Metabo/Mafell/Eibenstock/etc have released any tools that touch that amount of power demand (yet). Here's the video, in true German dramatic fashion: |
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