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Post by rizzoa13 on Jul 19, 2016 19:48:27 GMT -5
Yea instopped scoffing at prices once I realized how enjoyable good tools are.
I work with them day in and day out. Carpentry is my passion on top of my job so tools are really my outlet. Plus I essentially get 30% off because every dollar I spend on tools I don't have to pay income taxes on so its pretty affordable 😜
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Post by reflector on Jul 20, 2016 1:43:12 GMT -5
Still too expensive still ridiculously short warranty still dubious support for repairs for supposedly lifetime tools. The tools look great but its time mafell follows thru with correct pricing warranties and service I'm going to agree that Mafell does have a "weak" warranty in the US. There's nothing about the European warranty limiting it by say "3 years for personal/individual usage, 1 year for business." Its an actual single year warranty without registration and a three year on registration. This is Mafell's decision and I personally was less deterred by this. I think that for those who order from overseas they're even less deterred by this since warranty support is a question mark related to mailing the tool back to Germany. The thing I wouldn't question is the build quality. That's something I already have a little doubt over on the TS55REQ which has a plain bearing. Apparently the TS55 and other tracksaws (From checking diagrams: The Makita, Dewalt and Mafell) have ball bearings in the location the TS55REQ changed over to a plain bearing. I have also noticed Bosch North America has a "weak" warranty for their corded tools: 1 year only. The German versions allow for registration for extension to three years. Perhaps this is a corporate policy thing with German companies, but I am not amused by it. However, I disagree about the value part. After handling some Festools myself and having the P1cc and MT55cc in the long term, I would have a hard time comparing the physical build quality and refinement of the tools. There's definite significant difference, the P1cc feels solid in every way. The plastic feels better. The footplate is significantly more burly and has obvious signs of machining (Its no precision ground surface but it is definitely precision machined). I could say some similar things about the TS55REQ and MT55cc. The TS55 lacks some of the features of the MT55 like the dust collection performance, plastic handfeel and finer design points. If I were to rate those by the actual cost to Mafell to add some features (Single point bevel lock on the MT55cc) then it wouldn't be fair, but for me as an end user would I quickly drop another $50-100 for those "ease of usage" features and better fit and finish? Yeah, yeah I would. I'm already paying over 300-400USD for the tool. I haven't even gotten to the "crinkled" paint finish on the MT55cc, that in itself is another manufacturing step just to texturize it like that and I found that was a nice touch compared to regular flat paint. The addition of the scouring height toggle and the dynamics of the pivot t o enable the offset is another point. I could also add on about the thin rubber lip they add to the housing so that it'll fully when you close the side up. Or the solid but complex (And perhaps overengineered) locking mechanism they put onto the MT55cc for the side. Compare and contrast: TS55REB(Brake, European version)Q in a systainer is about 500GBP. The MT55cc is about 50-100 more. The US price between the TS55REQ and MT55cc (Timberwolf price) is 200 dollars. That part I can attribute the extra cost to the former single source distributor-reseller. Holmz captured the point about the track system pretty well. Having the 1.6m rails join without any extra special tools aside from the joining piece is nice. No special aftermarket devices or jigs that cost between reasonable to outrageous. No dancing with a expensive level and flipping the rails over. I'm also probably one of the stranger types that went for the MT55cc on the capability to quickly swap the blade out so I can have the optimal blade for the material and the MT55cc allows for better dust collection and the ability to use super thin kerf blades that wouldn't work with an unmodified riving knife.
holmz The UK 110V cost is about the same as the 230V version in the UK. There's no excuse to bump the price for 110V when they're equally priced in the UK and the US version is effectively the same aside the plug.
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Post by reflector on Jul 20, 2016 1:51:41 GMT -5
Again, this is speculation, but if we are to compare festool to mafell, festool have pushed harder in North America, on a gamble. Festool has an actual presence and distribution in the states. Mafell has taken a more cautious route. With a much smaller specialty tool distribution. They don'thave the market penetration, or resources to offer the same service warranty that they do in Europe. Adding tool nut to their list of American sellers is a definite step towards increased market presence. If the tool nut phase proves successful, we might see further distribution, a north American office, and an improved warranty. It's foolish business to bet everything on "ifs" and can understand someone's hesitation. Similarly mafell hesitates on investing in a state of the art American facility as it could cost millions if north Americadoesnt prove profitable. Funny how no one scoffs at the price of mechanics tools, large shop machinery or the like. Carpenter's are trained to buy cheap over quality I suppose. If your business works on the cheap, that's great. Mine works on some expensive gear and business is very profitable. Everyone is happy Life goes on I'll add some more to what Ghostfist said, in another world the cost of machinery is differentiated in the tens of thousands. Jumping from $40k to $80k means the difference from "making this cut will push the motor to 150% for 2 minutes and the cutter will suffer in life from chattering because of the machine rigidity" to "making the same cut barely pushes the motor above 50% on the load and you practically can't hear the cut even if you have a moderately priced tool holder." In a lot of ways it's a machine that's twice if not more than the first machine. Can you get the job done with the $40k machine? Yeah. Can you get the job done better with the $80k machine, make more parts or more bids, save on tooling costs in the long run (And possibly short, too), have a more enjoyable experience with it when you're using it all while possibly making more at the end of the day (Or perhaps some balance spectrum of "enjoyable experience to profit")? Yeah. For some people, they actually enjoy working and if they can make work more enjoyable it's with the opportunity cost for them. Are there people who go "ha! I can build something that cuts almost 1/10th as well but I need to fiddle with it and everything, it'll cost 1/16th as much but I'll be struggling all the way and I won't have any of the features or even most of the capability" in response to that. Or even better "Ha, my machine can make things out of plastic as well but it adds the plastic instead of subtracting plastic, those stupid machines cost 130x as much as my machine." Maybe that's all that guy needs, he doesn't need something that'll turn ferrous blocks into something else. Shaped pieces of plastic at the precision levels he's working at is sufficient. Maybe he doesn't even need that much precision, he just needs something more precise than he can do by hand. I think the same applies to the table saw world but I don't have my own personal justification for a 5 figure table saw (yet? ??). Maybe just stepping up to an Erika 85 (Grrr 110V, come on Mafell you guys make the KSS80 in 110V...) would be more than enough for me. Maybe it won't be. I don't have the answer to that myself yet.
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Post by toomanytoys on Jul 20, 2016 13:31:28 GMT -5
Ok, so we're getting into the weeds off the intent of this thread, so I'll attempt to summerize the situation.
In the USA there's a new dealer in town for Mafell products, and we're up to 2.
Both stores sell the products at the Mafell regulated retail price structure for the USA. Between the two, Tool Nut offers free shipping on anything over $40, which in Mafell world means anything but minor parts. So therefore, just about all USA sales will be going to Tool Nut.
If as a contractor you were unlucky enough to have your storage violated and in the market for replacing an inventory of items, a private conversation with TN may be of interest.
Warranty and out of warranty repairs will be going through Timberwolf one way or the other, and the tools most likely being shipped back to the Motherland for the work. From the few (one) repair I know of that is how it was done so a delay in usefulness will need to be endured.
Tool Nut has the tools available for hands on inspection as does Timberwolf in ME, but TN is north of NYC and since there seems to be a fair concentration of owners in the tri-state area, there exists more opportunity for this touchy-feely experience.
The biggest discount for tools still requires a commitment to using a 220-240vac supply, hard wired, transformer, or generator provided, dealing with trans-ocean shipments and importing tariffs. Along with the inconvienience of the same pathway for tool repairs. The same pricing for trans-ocean repair shipment however would be borne for any out-of-warranty repairs after one year of ownership, despite USA or EU store acquired. Market timing for the most beneficial monetary exchange rate should be monitored.
I think that sums it up without tool value interpretations.
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bengt
New Member
Posts: 25
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Post by bengt on Jul 20, 2016 17:12:25 GMT -5
Did a post of mine get deleted or did I botch it ? Anyway I do not compare mafell to festool exclusively. For example I use the makita track saw which I find better than the festool, more power, more capacity, anti tip, scoring feature and more affordable. I find the rail joining to be a minor inconvenience well worth the cost savings considering the router attachments and parellel guide aftermarket attachments not available on mafell. Furthermore I too enjoy GOOD tools like the makita track saw and my made in switzerland dewalt routers (timeless elu designs) I roll with a dewalt dws780 for frame and exterior and find the makita ls1216l has its quirks but is an excellent finish saw especially hooked to my sawhelper. I find my yard sale makita table saw is a gem in a rousseau stand. It takes more than a high price and a fancy german name to make it with me. That being said I have integerated the festool domino in my work flow and some of mafell's offerings interest me.... but the prices lack of warranty and wait to have it repaired after its sent to timberwolf off to germany just chaps my hide. I demand better.
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Post by Knight Woodworks on Jul 20, 2016 18:32:16 GMT -5
Jack,
Thanks, that's a concise and well done summery. One small nit to pick. Tool Nut has stated that they will offer demo opportunities. Timberwolf has limited demo models, for example if you were interested in the p1cc jigsaw you could handle it but not plug it in and trial it. May or may not be an issue for folks.
John
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Post by toomanytoys on Jul 20, 2016 19:35:40 GMT -5
Good point. Depends on your definition of "Demo". I figured I harassed Shane enough to not ask if it meant hold in your hands or cut up the load of cabinet grade plywood brought up in the back of the F-350. Probably both of us have already map checked the store location in relation to our trips between NJ and MA.
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Post by Knight Woodworks on Jul 20, 2016 20:00:53 GMT -5
True that. I've visited TW's Maine location once and TN's several times. Might need to stop by again in the near future. John
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Post by shanetoolnut on Jul 20, 2016 20:02:40 GMT -5
They don't call us the Tool Nuts for nothing! Come on by, bring your ply or other materials, plug 'er in and make sawdust.
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Post by holmz on Jul 21, 2016 1:15:19 GMT -5
... or cut up the load of cabinet grade plywood brought up in the back of the F-350... I'll bring a broom in cased they do not have one.
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questa
Junior Member
Posts: 62
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Post by questa on Jul 21, 2016 8:09:33 GMT -5
Shane you may want to take a flyer on an Erika 70 ( complete set up) and place one in your showroom to gauge interest. I think everyone who has one sings its praises but it is really taking a leap of faith to open your wallet and order one. Being able touch and feel may kick off a few sales.
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Post by shanetoolnut on Jul 21, 2016 8:12:19 GMT -5
Shane you may want to take a flyer on an Erika 70 ( complete set up) and place one in your showroom to gauge interest. I think everyone who has one sings its praises but it is really taking a leap of faith to open your wallet and order one. Being able touch and feel may kick off a few sales. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll make sure the guys in the store suggest giving it a look in the catalog or online to Mafell customers. We hope to add the Erika along with some of the other tools in the coming months. I'd like to check it out myself in person. Looks pretty sweet from what I've seen. Shane
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Post by rizzoa13 on Jul 21, 2016 8:32:59 GMT -5
I'd suggest getting an Erika, the sliding table and the MFA fence in store. Have it folded up against a wall and teach one of your employees to become really proficient at setting it up and switching between rip and crosscut functions. Contractors will have a really hard time leaving without it once they realize how well it all folds up and stores in a trailer/sprinter. I'm serious you'll sell so many of them just by showing people how easy it is to setup and have such a capable machine at your jobsite.
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Post by Knight Woodworks on Jul 21, 2016 11:30:10 GMT -5
^ What he said. Have a vac handy to demonstrate the dust collection....
John
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Post by fidelfs on Jul 21, 2016 22:54:51 GMT -5
I have not seen this much action in this forum for quite some time. Well done ToolNut. I want to add, I think I am one of the few who is not a professional in this trade. This is my hobby. It is a lot of money to justify just for a weekend enjoyment, but let me tell you one story. One day I was cutting with my TS55 (Festool) and I (granted a user error) plunge too soon before the blade was a full speed. The TS55 jump and cut into the rail. I was glad it was not any part of my body. That day I lost confidence on the that expensive tool to be better that others. I decided to try the Mafell Mt55. I didn't like the red very much, it was not one of my favorite colors back then. It was a night and day how the tool felt. I tried with a lot of caution to make the same mistake with the Mafell, plunging too soon, I tried to force a kick back (I don't recommend this to anyone, I tried this on my own risk). I couldn't, I tried different ways, but the MT55 didn't kick back. That moment, I made my decision that I will pay more for Mafell even it is just a hobby. I feel safer, more in control of the tools. I bought recently the Mafell duo doweller dd40 and it is joy to work with. I have the domino 500 and 700. The 500 is a pain to use. Fence creeps up after few cuts, if you plunge too fast the mortise won't be parallel, etc. Don't let me start with the plastic attachments. It is a nightmare. The dd40 even with the plastic attachments is so easy to use, that it looks like a tool for "kids". I feel more enjoyment when I work in my garage, I don't have to fight the tool, the tool has become an extension of me. I am not trying to put Festool down, I just trying to show what quality is. Quality should be in the tool and also in any other attachment or consumable. I don't recover the cost of any tool, it is just an expense. I decided to move to Mafell for what the tool has to offer even being more expensive. I still use my Festool routers, sanders an dominos, but my new purchases are "red" or "yellow" (Mirka). QUALITY is the main reason, if a tool has quality it is hard to look away.
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