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Post by GhostFist on Oct 6, 2014 4:25:29 GMT -5
yup the 26 is much more stable. Side note, has anyone checked out the new Fein vacs?
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Post by 7 on Oct 6, 2014 22:57:58 GMT -5
I just looked up the new Fein vacs & they look cool. I think I like the shape of the festool line a bit better but the Fein hose looks a lot more flexible and the metal attachments also look much nicer. A few reviews all point out that it's really quiet. I wonder if it's a lot quieter than the festool vacs. I have an old fein model...not a fan of the shape/ top heaviness but its a nice & reliable vac.
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Oct 17, 2014 21:38:04 GMT -5
Ok, so I'm FINALLY ready to pull the trigger on a Metabo ASR 35 ACP! I really like my Festool CT-26 and CT-MIDI for general carpentry tasks, but they just aren't up to the task for extracting fine cementitious dust from grinding and breaking concrete, sanding drywall, etc.... I have an Oneida Dust Duputy, and like it for shop work but have found it to be cumbersome for on-site use. To recap, what appeals to me about the Starmix (and rebranded models) ISP series vacs is that they have HEPA filters, have continuous suction even when pulsing the filters, and are antistatic equipped. Something I'm a little hung up on though, is the price of the plastic dust bags. Right now, it sounds like I'll be looking at roughly $20/bag, compared to roughly $8 for the plastic bags for the CT-36 AC. Ultimately I just pass the cost along to my customers anyways, but I am wondering if there is a less expensive option? Are the bags for the 1st gen Bosch (Starmix) vacs compatible with the 2nd/3rd gen vacs? Are they any less expensive? I can usually go a week or two before I need to replace a bag, so even at $20/bag we're only talking about ~$1-$2 per day, so it's certainly not a deal breaker, I'm just wondering which options I might have. Thanks!
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Post by wrightwoodwork on Oct 18, 2014 1:23:32 GMT -5
As you are in America not sure if you can find out who has the main distribution rights for starmix. In the uk I was being charged over £40 for the mafell bags. Where for the starmix bags which is still class M are coming in at £20 for 5 basically half the price fir the same bag. It's not like it's a cheap copy. Properly try searching on the starmix site
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Post by MrToolJunkie on Oct 18, 2014 9:34:21 GMT -5
Is this not the same vac as the newer Bosch models?
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Oct 18, 2014 12:26:53 GMT -5
Is this not the same vac as the newer Bosch models? I believe that the newer Bosch vacs are from a different manufacturer. For now I will just purchase the Metabo/Starmix vac, and audition different PE bags from various manufacturers to see if any are compatible with the Starmix. My primary concerns right now are 1. Appropriate fit, 2. Availability, 3. Cost, and finally 4. Durability. For starters I am going to try the bags from the Festool CT-36 AC and the Hilti VC vacs, since they are both readily available. I'll post back in a few weeks with an assessment.
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Post by GhostFist on Oct 18, 2014 14:05:40 GMT -5
Looking forward to your findings.
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Nov 12, 2014 21:05:55 GMT -5
Finally received my Metabo vac! It's the ASR 35 ACP, the Metabo-branded version of the latest Starmix ISP series vacs. Only hiccup thus far is that the supplied has was 10' instead of the 16' hose described in the catalog, but my supplier has contacted Metabo and they already have a replacement hose on it's way. The supplied hose is a standard, non anti-static hose, but that's fine for many of my tasks, and besides I'm already well equipped with Festool antistatic hoses.
After perusing the Starmix manual, surprisingly (to me) it suggests using paper bags when extracting extremely fine dust. My supplier is still working on getting paper bags for me, but in the mean time I've been using fleece bags for the Festool CT-26 and they seem to work just fine. I'm still trying t figure out exactly which bag style (paper, fleece, plastic) to use for specific applications, wish I could speak with someone at Startmix directly, do we know if they speak English?
Specifically, I'm trying to figure out which bag to use for general purpose extraction (~80% wood, ~20% fine cementitious), and which bag to use for heavy extraction (100%) of drywall dust (Festool Planex), or cutting/grinding concrete.
I'm working on fashioning a custom Systainer dock for the vac, will post pics when complete. I remember hearing that Starmix was going to develop a new Systainer dock for their new ISP vans, have we heard anything new there??
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Post by GhostFist on Nov 12, 2014 22:04:49 GMT -5
Once you've given a good kicking to the tires, you mind writing a brief comparison to festool vacs?
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Nov 12, 2014 23:19:33 GMT -5
Once you've given a good kicking to the tires, you mind writing a brief comparison to festool vacs? Certainly! I've already noticed several compromises between the vacs. I certainly don't want to disparage the Festool vacs, for general carpentry they're fantastic and are "good-to-go" right out of the box, but I have very specific want's needs and I think this vac will fit that niche very nicely. I'll start a separate thread specific to the Metabo vac, but here's a sneak peek: I already miss the Festool "parking brake". While the Metabo/Starmix has locking castors, the vac still readily slides around, nowhere near as stable as my CT-26. It's a bit of a pain to have to retrofit a Systainer dock to the Metabo, and even then I think I'm ultimately going to have to do without a Hose Garage, unless I use the garage available for the CT-22/33. On the bright side, I LOOOOOOVE that the outlet is always live!! This was a major reason I wanted this vac. Should be great for using the CT Wings, and various dust extraction accessories that suction to the wall. I'll write more extensively about this later, but this is at the top of my list of things I wish Festool would do, and it's enough of a feature that I'm willing to forego some of the above features to get it. I like that I seem to be able to use the Festool fleece bags, I like that I don't lose suction when the filters activate (this was my primary complaint with the CT-36 AC), the unit uses HEPA filters can can be rinsed if need be, I don't need to perform any sort of filter swap should I need to perform wet vacuuming.... Basically, I'm going to miss Festool's "Parking Brake" and Hose Garage, otherwise the Starmix/Metabo is equal if not better in every regard. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to me to have the outlet constantly live.
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Post by jonathan on Nov 13, 2014 1:44:40 GMT -5
I'm working on fashioning a custom Systainer dock for the vac, will post pics when complete. I remember hearing that Starmix was going to develop a new Systainer dock for their new ISP vans, have we heard anything new there?? Hi Tom, I've recently reached out to a dealer about this. He was pretty brief and couldn't tell me much of anything other than it's supposedly coming out in December/January. I'd add a few more weeks to that and assume Q1 2015. I'm also eager to see what they've come up with. Unfortunately and in all honesty I'd be surprised if it's anything more than a minor adaptation of the one they provide for their previous generation of vacuums. Hopefully the info was correct and we'll find out soon enough if they managed to come up with something special or not.
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Post by Tom Gensmer on Nov 13, 2014 8:59:48 GMT -5
I'm working on fashioning a custom Systainer dock for the vac, will post pics when complete. I remember hearing that Starmix was going to develop a new Systainer dock for their new ISP vans, have we heard anything new there?? Hi Tom, I've recently reached out to a dealer about this. He was pretty brief and couldn't tell me much of anything other than it's supposedly coming out in December/January. I'd add a few more weeks to that and assume Q1 2015. I'm also eager to see what they've come up with. Unfortunately and in all honesty I'd be surprised if it's anything more than a minor adaptation of the one they provide for their previous generation of vacuums. Hopefully the info was correct and we'll find out soon enough if they managed to come up with something special or not. Hi Jonathon, thank you very much for the info!! Right now I am working on adapting one of the Festool rolling carts into a Systainer plate, but of course I'd prefer a "Factory" solution. For the older plate/vac, how were they attached? Was it some sort of clip on, or did you permanently attach with screws? Of course, the other major obstacle for me would be actually getting the plate here to North America! I doubt Metabo USA would create a SKU just for a handful of plates. If/when Starmix does release a Systainer plate for their ISP series vacs, we may have to rely on some kind hearted MUF member willing to ship a few to North America.
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sl01
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by sl01 on Nov 27, 2014 11:24:21 GMT -5
Hi everyone, This is my first post on MUF so here goes... I recently made a decision between the top contenders for a dust extractor to be used primarily for the less demanding tasks of sanding and jigsawing, where my primary concern was adjustable fine control of vacuum suction which can have a great impact on finish quality. Once in a while, I need it to do some wet duty as well. My work is not cabinetry but 3D objects, and my workspace is relatively small. My primary sanding tool is the Rotex 90. After weeks of research on the FOG and other forums, the contender short list comprised the now discontinued Fein Turbo II 9-20-25, the Festool CT Midi or 26E, and the Metabo ASR 35. The latest Bosch units were eliminated early in the process due to the asinine hose storage and constant 15-second filter cleaning cycle. I spoke with and/or corresponded with every distributor to get the most current facts about their offerings, since most dealers are largely not able to answer the detailed questions I had. I even spoke with and corresponded with several folks at the Starmix factory in Germany. My priorities strongly pointed me to the Starmix ARDL 1435 EWS line, which in the US is most easily found in the Metabo ASR. I own Metabo tools and have confidence in how they make and qualify their products for sale. So even though this is a rebadge, I know they would have gone through the process to make sure it met their market needs which is mostly in concrete and metal work. I also liked the "1400W" motor, the iPulse filter cleaning process, the variable suction control, and I was entertained by the funny videos. On the downside, the Metabo ASR 35 does not come standard with an AS hose, there is no imminent solution for Systainer docking (confirmed with both Metabo and Starmix) and to go HEPA, the price of the filter is over 3x that of a Festool ($220 vs $65) due to it being 1. 2 filters, 2. pure scarcity. A factory-equipped HEPA unit averages $770 so to add the PE filters so it can do wet, it will add another $100 (the Festool is $19). Perhaps more importantly, I came across websites listing the unit as "Discontinued" and no longer available to order. This did not make any sense to me since the unit was only introduced by Metabo last year - then I came across a current Starmix promotion in Germany where they listed a 1600W ARDL 1635 EWSR model, so perhaps there is a new rev coming, even for the rebadged models. The last-gen Fein Turbo's were famous for being durable, quiet and strong, but these have been replaced by the newer ones that are made in a different factory (and country, from Italy to Romania), no longer have electronic suction control, and what's left in remaining dealer inventory are fetching higher prices than when they were still current. To go HEPA, it's another $120. A HEPA Fein is therefore about the same price as the Metabo and it does not have any filter cleaning capabilities. I called Fein to clarify how the filters would be used and was told that the cloth pre-filter would need to be substituted by the much-smaller capacity paper bag so as not to pre-maturely clog the motor. This sounded strange to me so more searching revealed that owners mentioned quite a few times that their vacs had to go in for motor replacement pretty early in their life due to bearing failures. Not to mention the lack of hose storage and Systainer docking, and the revered Fein went to the bottom of the list. Unlike many Festool owners, I have not drunk the green Kool-Aid. They make many fine tools, like my Rotex 90, but they also make some that require much more work to catch up, like their Carvex. When it comes to dust extraction, I frankly did not start with the CT's since they seemed overpriced for their capacity, their accessories are quite expensive, and I read a review where the supposedly equivalent performance between the smaller and bigger motors (as confirmed by their equivalent electrical and flow specs) were challenged in an actual test using a flow meter, showing that size actually matters (the bag that is). So I spoke with Festool about their motor, having heard and read that "they make it themselves in Germany". It was confirmed by the person I spoke with that this is in fact the case. I also asked if it is a 2-stage motor, and after a little explanation of what that is and subsequent checking on the other end of the phone, the answer came back as "yes". So considering the performance, HEPA, Systainer docking, maneuverability and a 3-year warranty for only $495, nearly $300 less than what the others would have cost, I took the plunge and bought the CT Midi. If I need more suction or a bigger tank for sawing, I will just get a bigger DC at that time. The CT Midi does not disappoint. From the careful and elegant design of the shipping carton to protect the vac without any styrofoam, it immediately impresses. The vac unit appears to be well built and the hose and power cord do completely fit in the hose garage very nicely, I am probably more fastidious than most so taking 30 seconds extra to do it so it all fits in nicely and tidily is no big deal to me. The suction control works very well and the integration with my Rotex 90 is a hand-in-glove fit (not an OJ fit). Now for the shocker - the motor on my CT Midi is made by Domel, the same company that makes the motor for Starmix. And it's NOT made in Germany, but in Slovenia. Please see attached photo. This is not a big deal to me at all, as motor making is a volume business and efficiency in producing large volumes means getting every little detail right as a recall could bankrupt them. Since Domel has been in the vac motor business for years, supplying Starmix and many others, I actually think it's a pretty wise choice by Festool. So I am pretty content and looking forward to good, long service from my CT Midi. If Starmix does bring out the 1600W 1635 AND establish proper US distribution and service, they would be on my list to consider for my next vac. I hope this long dissertation is helpful to someone in the same search. Steve
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Post by 7 on Nov 27, 2014 12:37:16 GMT -5
Nice thorough review, I like your thought process. I have 3 Festool vacs- CT36, CT26, and Midi. I need to send the midi in because it doesn't turn on most of the time...likely an electrical short I guess. That said, I have been very happy with them for all types of uses. If I do a task that requires a lot of dust collection like routing or lots of sawing then I connect them to a dust deputy. I also have the RO90 sander and use it way more than I ever thought I would when I bought it, love that thing.
Anyway, thanks for the review. I hope you stick around the forum. It seems like you would have a lot of interesting contributions based on your deep thinking and your unique work type. What specifically do you mean by "3D objects"?
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Post by MrToolJunkie on Nov 27, 2014 17:48:19 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum. Look forward to more reviews and thoughts.
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