osboy
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Posts: 6
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Post by osboy on Dec 7, 2019 20:59:45 GMT -5
Hi folks,
I need to replace my kitchen cabinets due to water damage. The amount that insurance is willing to pay will cover some decent pre-built units from mid-range cabinet suppliers- 1/2" plywood boxes, maple face frames, and MDF or maple doors. However... I am doing some math and I think that for about the same price I could buy the equivalent materials, some good tools... and make them myself.
I am not a skilled tradesman, nowhere near the level of you lot of building pros, but I am pretty handy with tools and have an engineering background. What I don't have is much of a workshop in this location, nor do I have much space to work. I have no table saw or track saw, just an older Makita compound miter saw and Ridgid cordless circular saw. I also have a Bosch router in a table, along with a plunge base and edge guide. Those have been OK for my previous small projects but I really need these cabinets to come out nice and be as good as what I can buy... I won't be able to to try it myself and then also pay to buy complete cabinets. So it is kind of a gamble but if I can pull it off I will end up with some REALLY nice tools for future use.
My thoughts are to purchase the following:
- KSS 300 - 2x F-160 guide rails - 1 F-VS connecting piece - 2x F-SZ quick clamps - DD40 Duo dowel joiner
I figure that I could use the KSS 300 to break down the plywood sheets, cut the rails and stiles for the frames, the panels for the shaker style doors, the slip tenons and rails\stiles for the doors, stretchers and nailers for the cabinets, and the drawer components. I would use the DD40 to join the face frames, drawers, and the cabinet boxes. For the cabinet assembly I would use the router to cut dados and rabbets, and likewise for fitting the panels into the doors. I also have a pocket screw jig that could be used to reinforce the cabinet boxes if it were necessary.
I was originally looking at the MT55 and comparing it to a Festool track saw and their plunge router with the LR32 system for not only routing out the dadoes and rabbets but also for drilling out shelf pin holes, hinge cup mortises, etc. I took a look at the Mafell 230v plunge router and wow is it nice but adding that to my list would push me out of what I can spend and still get all the materials I would need.
I would be using 1/2" or 3/4" cabinet grade plywood, possibly pre-finished on one side (the inside) and if not maple for the hardwood components then possibly pecan (hickory), or cypress, which are attractive, easy to find, and affordable here in southern Texas. My biggest uncertainty is in ripping repeated exact-length and width pieces for the frame components, without a table saw. Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated. Do you guys think this KSS 300 could be a one-saw solution for this type of project? My next two projects after this would be to replace the baseboards and crown molding throughout the house, and after that to lay some hardwood flooring in the master walk-in closets, and then build some cedar shelves and drawers on top of them.
Cheers
Seb
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Post by kraftt on Dec 7, 2019 21:43:12 GMT -5
Others will have more in depth info but I would mention that you might also consider buying the door/drawer fronts pre finished from a supplier. Building the boxes and face frames will be no problem for you (consider hanging uppers on cleats too).
What I read in your post was that you'll get the cabinets you want and keep some pretty great tools in the deal (?) If so, the pre finished doors/drawers option could strike the right balance.
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Post by aas on Dec 8, 2019 4:40:40 GMT -5
I wouldn't want to be cutting rails and styles for the doors with a KSS300. It's an excellent tool, but it has it's limits.
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Post by bicycleclip on Dec 8, 2019 8:28:20 GMT -5
The biggest thing that stands out is you mention a lack of space.
If I was in your shoes, and for some unfathomable reason had to buy tools rather than have a kitchen simply delivered to me, I would do one of the following.
1) Use a Lamello Zeta P and the pro connector / jig pack. I would order the sheet materials pre-cut and finished as much as possible, maybe have an MT55 and rails on hand to trim. You don’t mention a dust collector, but you definitely need one with the Zeta and for any saws and routers too. The advantage of this system is that you can use knock down fittings. This helps in limited space, and also means that you can rectify mistakes (because you will make a ton of them). Also in terms of budget, the Zeta is a big outlay but it is truly a walled garden, in that all you need is contained in that system
Or
2) Use a Mafell MF26 cc and buy additional rails and clamps. This is my personal approach. The MF26 excels as a dado/rabbet cutter and I have built many cabinets just using just dados and glue/clamps. It also comes with a sheet material blade (which is the same as you’d use in a KSS300). I would still buy sheet material pre-cut/finished, as much as possible, but it will help you trim. I wouldn’t get too hung up on shelf pins. I own a DD40P and jig, but if shelf pins are all you are doing, there’s a good Veritas jig available for less money. You can install screws / confirmats / millers dowels with a standard drill. The problem with this approach is it uses clamps and glue, which is skill intensive, but I find sturdier. Also the MF26 cuts grooves no narrower than 16mm, so 1/2” sheet has to be attached another way or not used. Again you need dust collection (and are better off with the 35mm hose specific to the MF26).
Of the two approaches, If it’s your first time, and don’t have much space, I would avoid glue and clamps and go for the Zeta.
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Post by arvid on Dec 8, 2019 14:17:17 GMT -5
Build euro frameless cabinets. Order drawers, drawer fronts and doors pre- made. We produce beautiful frameless kitchen cabinets now. The face frames are really an old fashioned unnecessary part now a days. With today’s hardware the door hinges actually fasten better to the cabinet box then to a hardwood faceframe. And with small reveals you cannot tell there are no face frames.
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osboy
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by osboy on Dec 8, 2019 20:49:40 GMT -5
Others will have more in depth info but I would mention that you might also consider buying the door/drawer fronts pre finished from a supplier. Building the boxes and face frames will be no problem for you (consider hanging uppers on cleats too). What I read in your post was that you'll get the cabinets you want and keep some pretty great tools in the deal (?) If so, the pre finished doors/drawers option could strike the right balance.
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I will expand my search to look into pre-made drawers and doors.
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osboy
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Posts: 6
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Post by osboy on Dec 8, 2019 21:37:15 GMT -5
I wouldn't want to be cutting rails and styles for the doors with a KSS300. It's an excellent tool, but it has it's limits. That's fair. I have been trying to figure out how I would do that on a KSS or a MT55. My inspiration for making MDF doors was the Peter Millard method shown here at Shaker Style Doors the Easy Way, where you can see at 1:12 he is using a Festool track saw on an MFT table to cut rails and stiles out of MDF.
My assumption is that the KSS saw with built-in cross-cut rail would perform the same way. To be fair though, the original rip cuts in the MDF to get the rails and stiles at a consistent width were done from a wide sheet, so there was no problem trying to balance a guide rail on narrow stock. That being said, there are methods I have seen where people use a supporting piece of stock the same thickness as the work piece to support the guide rail.
What Mafell offering would you suggest in place of the KSS 300 for cutting rails and stiles? It's a pretty big jump in price and complexity from circular\plunge saws to the Erika push-pull table saws.
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Post by aas on Dec 9, 2019 16:53:31 GMT -5
I had a quick look at the video you linked - knocking up some shaker style doors out of MDF which can be filled, sanded and painted is a million miles from doing it in maple.
I'm not really sure what your budget is or your ability - but just off the top of my head, I would say get a Festool Precisio CS50 and DF500 domino and you'll be getting better results and easier than with a KSS.
If you want to keep it Mafell, the baby Erika and a DD40 will do it - but the DD40 needs accuracy, the Domino doesn't.
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osboy
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Posts: 6
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Post by osboy on Dec 9, 2019 19:37:57 GMT -5
I had a quick look at the video you linked - knocking up some shaker style doors out of MDF which can be filled, sanded and painted is a million miles from doing it in maple. I'm not really sure what your budget is or your ability - but just off the top of my head, I would say get a Festool Precisio CS50 and DF500 domino and you'll be getting better results and easier than with a KSS. If you want to keep it Mafell, the baby Erika and a DD40 will do it - but the DD40 needs accuracy, the Domino doesn't.
You're right- MDF and paint are more forgiving than solid wood and that's a good point. I like your suggestion about going to a table saw and a Domino. I actually originally started out looking at table saws, but I knew I would struggle to cut full sheet goods so then I started looking at track saws, originally the Festool TS55REQ and MFT. I looked at the Kreg Adaptive Cutting System too, and have been considering that, and from there I found my way to Mafell and was looking primarily at the MT55 paired with Bosch rails until the KSS 300 caught my eye.
My tool budget is about $2500US. As far as my ability... well I am not experienced in wood or cabinetry, although I really want to get into it. The older I get the more it calls to me. On this project I have already done the demolition, insulation, drywall, plumbing (ran a 1/2" Pex feed to the wall above the range for a pot-filler) and paint, all of which passed inspection.
I have not gotten into woodworking because I lacked tools and specific projects. I did baseboards a few years ago, and got my Makita sliding compound miter saw, and they came out pretty good, but that saw is a little wiggy now. It got knocked over when I was moving, and it's not been the same since. :-(
When you say the baby Erika do you mean the 70 or the 60e? I can't seem to find the 60e for sale anywhere in North America- Timberwolf doesn't even list it. I looked at a couple of UK outlets that will ship to the US but they show out of stock so I wonder if it has been discontinued.
Thank you for the advice on the Domino vs. the Duo, the Domino was the original joining tool I looked into and it looks pretty versatile.
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osboy
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by osboy on Dec 9, 2019 19:51:07 GMT -5
Build euro frameless cabinets. Order drawers, drawer fronts and doors pre- made. We produce beautiful frameless kitchen cabinets now. The face frames are really an old fashioned unnecessary part now a days. With today’s hardware the door hinges actually fasten better to the cabinet box then to a hardwood faceframe. And with small reveals you cannot tell there are no face frames. I *love* Euro frameless cabinets. To me the style is nice and clean and you get MORE USABLE SPACE without all the lips and STUPID center stiles in the way. I am a pretty big guy, you should see me trying to get through one half of a sink base face frame to install a garbage disposal.
After your suggestion I went looking for info and spent hours on Dave Lers website looking into Euro\32mm cabinets. My wife wants Shaker doors, so I think full overlay shaker doors on frameless boxes would be ideal, but she prefers the face-frame style with partial overlays. I will admit that around here in Southern Texas most people do have face-frame style, which is annoying to me. Her argument is based in part on her love of the traditional look and in part of possible impact on resale.
I disagree with her, and I am working to convince her, but I may ultimately have to cave on that point. Anyway the cabinets would not impact resale because I am going to love them so much that I will take them with me if we ever move. :-P
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osboy
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by osboy on Dec 9, 2019 20:07:14 GMT -5
The biggest thing that stands out is you mention a lack of space. If I was in your shoes, and for some unfathomable reason had to buy tools rather than have a kitchen simply delivered to me, I would do one of the following. 1) Use a Lamello Zeta P and the pro connector / jig pack. I would order the sheet materials pre-cut and finished as much as possible, maybe have an MT55 and rails on hand to trim. You don’t mention a dust collector, but you definitely need one with the Zeta and for any saws and routers too. The advantage of this system is that you can use knock down fittings. This helps in limited space, and also means that you can rectify mistakes (because you will make a ton of them). Also in terms of budget, the Zeta is a big outlay but it is truly a walled garden, in that all you need is contained in that system Or 2) Use a Mafell MF26 cc and buy additional rails and clamps. This is my personal approach. The MF26 excels as a dado/rabbet cutter and I have built many cabinets just using just dados and glue/clamps. It also comes with a sheet material blade (which is the same as you’d use in a KSS300). I would still buy sheet material pre-cut/finished, as much as possible, but it will help you trim. I wouldn’t get too hung up on shelf pins. I own a DD40P and jig, but if shelf pins are all you are doing, there’s a good Veritas jig available for less money. You can install screws / confirmats / millers dowels with a standard drill. The problem with this approach is it uses clamps and glue, which is skill intensive, but I find sturdier. Also the MF26 cuts grooves no narrower than 16mm, so 1/2” sheet has to be attached another way or not used. Again you need dust collection (and are better off with the 35mm hose specific to the MF26). Of the two approaches, If it’s your first time, and don’t have much space, I would avoid glue and clamps and go for the Zeta. I have one half of a two-car garage for cutting and routing, tools, and material storage. Inside the house I have the breakfast nook, about 8'x10' for gluing and clamping and assembly. It's a galley-style kitchen with the breakfast nook on one end and the fridge and pantry on the other end, with the sink across form the stove and 4 feet of cabinets on either side of each.
I should be able to assemble in the nook and then just carry the boxes into the kitchen. I will be re-using the granite tops from the old stapled particle board cabinets.
You are actually right- I seem to be making this more complicated by attempting it myself but I have already done a lot of the repair work myself, only subbing out the parts I don't feel like I can do well enough on my own. My DIY has freed up some of the funds from the insurance payout, so I see an opportunity here with the cabinets to so some work I can be proud of, get some awesome tools for future endeavours, and learn in the process. I may end up kicking myself and coming back here to tell you I wish I'd just bought some cabinets. :-D
As a hobbyist\DIYer, with so many other things to spend money on, it's sometimes hard to get nice tools unless I can justify them with a specific project.
That Lamello Zeta looks amazing. Even if I didn't use the knockdown Clamex connectors, those Tenso ones are the bees knees. Self-clamping! I do not have a proper dust collector, just a shop-vac with a hepa bag and a muffler. I know that's no comparison and I do plan to get a dust extractor in future, but at least I won't be cutting or routing inside the house.
That MF26 looks incredible. It would pretty much use up my tool budget by itself but I love that it can route and groove and cut anything with the right blade.
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Post by aas on Dec 10, 2019 6:06:34 GMT -5
Re : euro style vs face frame - once your wife starts using and cleaning euro cupboards, she'll never want to go back to the old fashioned face frame. A euro frameless can have matching edge banding too... I was talking about the Erika 60... can you get the Festool CS50 over there? Forget MF26 and Lamello Zeta, I have both and would not recommend for a beginner who wants to do what you want to do.
CS50, DF500 and if budget won't stretch to the Mafell, a Makita track saw.
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