|
Post by henrun on Sept 30, 2019 14:41:40 GMT -5
Well I got to play around with it on Friday. A couple of cuts. It’s quiet and the motor and carriage are smooth. It s small and light. But I am sorry to say it’s a $500 saw. The build quAlity is closer to the current crap 10”scms than the original 8” scms. Upper fences not flush nor straight. Center Turret tires is lower than wings and just the overall feel is a $500 saw. On top of that it’s retro in all the wrong ways, max 57 degree miter not 60, no bevel past 45, laser that disappears when blade is lowered and no shadow line. It’s a miss. I recommend to Metabo hpt move production to China sell a ton at $500 and try again. If you pay $1250 for this saw you are a fool it’s not a $1250 tool period. That’s a fact. Anybody saying otherwise is blind or a paid shrill. Bengt, you are welcome with your opinions but it is a bit harsh to start calling potential buyers "blind" or "paid shrill". That is more in tune with the Festool forum fanboyism we are trying to avoid here.
The Metabo HPT saw does not seem to be built to the specs for a premium mitre saw - even with the corded and cordless option which is a unique feature in itself and should warrant a premium. But to be honest, in terms of being worth the admission neither was the Festool KS60, as I found out myself when I bought one. I would not call anyone buying it "blind" or "paid shrill" though I find the KS60 WAY overpriced too. The shadow cut marker is kind of pointless as you need to drop the blade almost to touch the material to have a sharp shadow - you might as well just dip the blade to the material like in the olden days, before lasers.
Innovative is being first and taking it to the next level. Seems both Metabo HPT and Festool failed at that. The one thing Metabo HPT has on Festool is that it has a cordless mitre saw in the product range. Festool does not even have one on offer.
I look forward to seing more medium sized (blade size 190 to 216mm) battery powered mitre saws emerge. Like the Bosch "Surgeon" which I think will be a very basic 18V mitre saw judging by the current saw line up it is based on. Hopefully the price will be on target and the build quality good enough. I honestly think the Metabo KGS 215 did a very good job with a single 18V battery and it was pretty accurate too - and for the price it was/is a steal! A little on the flimsy side and laser adjustment was a bit of a chore but cut well. I would probably rate the older Metabo as the best bang for the buck on the market though the Metabo brand is not as strong over here.
Considering the price of the Metabo HPT versus the Metabo KGS 18V I would say the Metabo HPT would have to drop the price to around the $6-700 mark - and include batteries and the ac adapter at that.
|
|
bengt
New Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by bengt on Sept 30, 2019 20:16:36 GMT -5
Hey man, you too please do not make it personal. Let’s be honest I am. The battery no battery option has nothing to do with build quality. If you bought the saw put your money where your mouth is and show video and pictures of the central turret lower than the sides the out of flush upper fences and untrue fence and out of parallel blade with the rails. Prove I am wrong. The saw is not up to the $1250 standard. I deal with reality. You leave the Festool name calling where it belongs. I challenge anybody who bought this saw to show me I am wrong. If I am wrong I’ will buy the saw.
|
|
|
Post by huntsgemein on Sept 30, 2019 23:20:46 GMT -5
Hey man, you too please do not make it personal. Let’s be honest I am. The battery no battery option has nothing to do with build quality. If you bought the saw put your money where your mouth is and show video and pictures of the central turret lower than the sides the out of flush upper fences and untrue fence and out of parallel blade with the rails. Prove I am wrong. The saw is not up to the $1250 standard. I deal with reality. You leave the Festool name calling where it belongs. I challenge anybody who bought this saw to show me I am wrong. If I am wrong I’ will buy the saw. Steady down cobber. Don't leave your manners behind!
|
|
|
Post by jozsefkozma on Oct 1, 2019 8:05:49 GMT -5
still very much thinking weight , size , dual power , is very important to me
|
|
|
Post by huntsgemein on Oct 1, 2019 8:48:42 GMT -5
US $1249 is a crazy expensive price for a cordless mitre saw. Also, even with the "double-belted" reduction gears allowing for a smaller arbor pulley with less depth-of-cut interference, I feel that 7 1/4" is a mite too small for many commonly used timber sizes.
I actually really, really like my little 216mm (8 1/2") Metabo KGS 216 too. It's getting a bit old now, but was as insanely cheap (AU $270, US $175) as the Hitachi/Hikoki is stupidly expensive: over SEVEN TIMES more than the old Metabo was! OK I've had to supply my own batteries, but nevertheless in all but wet hardwood scantling the little Metabo has handled most everything asked of it. After some 5 or 6 years now it's still (relatively) powerful, accurate, plus the laser & LEDs still work about as well as the dust extraction doesn't.
It's obviously not as capacious as my Bosch Glide Saw nor as accurate as my DeWalt Radial Arm Saw, but is ACTUALLY, realistically portable, being a mere fraction of the weight & price of either of the alternatives. It's major failing is in my opinion the lack of a 60 degree mitre capability. Unlike others, I've found myself searching out this setting quite often for basic scissor halving joints in furniture construction (legs, underframes & the like). Nevertheless, its compactness, light weight and portability makes it the go-to saw for site work or just as a quickie saw for a few cuts on the picnic table in the garden, etc.
I think I'd be quite lost without it frankly! It's got to be one of my favourite, not to mention (almost) most used tool in the shed.
|
|
|
Post by henrun on Oct 7, 2019 2:31:40 GMT -5
Bengt: I get that you want to come across as being "honest" and so do I. But you are kind of missing the point. I agree that the price for the Hikoki is very steep. But then comparing the Hikoki to a Festool Kapex and making it sound like the Hikoki is the only one that is overpriced is not being "honest" in my opinion. It is just an opinion. The point in comparing 18V mitre saws (which is what the thread originally is about) with Festool is kind of moot - since they don't even offer one! It is almost like saying that a Diesel car is so much more capable when we are talking about electric cars. I have owned both Kapex machines and decided I did not like them, neither build quality or price/perfomance. That is me being "honest" in my opinion. I don't need to put my money where my mouth is, my days of buying blind or on "faith" is over. I did that with Festool and it didn't pan out. That is why I am probably never going to get that Hikoki DRA3607: it is not available over here and I would like to check my unit before I buy if I was going to get one. So, not an option for me - perhaps I would order one from abroad if the price was _significantly_ less. In essence I think we agree on some parts, but disagree on other parts. As for the Youtube reviewer I take his word for it though he only sampled one unit. I checked out the Milwaukee review he made and it wasn't that good either. My gripe with Festool (and I can guarantee that I own and have owned far more Festool gear than you) is that they stopped being innovative a few years ago as well as starting to release less reliable machines. My source for this is the head of one of the largest repair centers for many major brands. Overall I have had more Festool gear failing than any other brand combined, no matter how you run the numbers; as a percentage or in actual units.
Do note that I really take care of my gear too, I sell off my Festool when the three year period is out and people buy them happily and often comment on how well maintained they are. I am a stickler for that.
The most important part is that Festool customer service has gone down a few notches as well as taking a new stance towards their resellers when it comes to handling warranty issues. Festool is dropping the ball, a few times too many. I have a good report with the Festool rep over here though he is tied down by company policy. Which has gotten worse. Build quality and accuracy are two different things. In my opinion Festool is not as good as they used to be. I still very much like Festool though they are more often late to the party and not really being that innovative lately. Look at the new Makita LS610 dual bevel mitre slider with LED, laser, compact and highly portable 18V mitre saw with Bluetooth. That is innovative, even if the specs are limiting for some it is pretty much bang on for everything in my wish list. (Not Bluetooth really, but it is there). Huntsgemein: I do agree that the Metabo KGS 216 18V is something of a sleeper unit. Cheap compared to the competition and available as both a slider and a non slider mitre saw. I had one for a year and a half and I kind of miss the little bugger at times. For decking and studs it was more than accurate enough. Best bang for the buck on the market indeed! I thought it a bit flimsy at the time though I realize the way I used it was a bit rough on the saw due to the weight and portability, which made me use it unsupported too many times. It always got the job done though. How about that KSS50 - did you ever get that sorted out!?
|
|
|
Post by henrun on Oct 7, 2019 2:38:07 GMT -5
Size comparison on the Makita vs the Hikoki 3606 (which I have). I am going to wait and see if the Makita will come to the european market. If so I will take a long hard look at it. I have to say I am really pleased with the Hikoki 3606. Have only used the ac adapter two times since the batteries are really convenient and long lasting. I have the Hikoki hooked up to Festool vacs with Bluetooth switch on the end of the hose. A great combination.
|
|
|
Post by huntsgemein on Oct 7, 2019 5:48:45 GMT -5
How about that KSS50 - did you ever get that sorted out!? Nope. Nobody local to sort it out. Strange thing is, I keep "hoping" that it's just me & not the saw at fault. I occasionally get it out, manipulate a few controls, spin the blade a few degrees by hand, mount a battery & watch the LEDs flash a couple of cycles, then quietly swear a bit & put it away again. Actually, just today I've done precisely what I'd advised another forumite to never do: a new grey import. In my case an MT 55 18M BL Pure direct from a UK based retailer, & mercifully without any duty despite slightly surpassing the AU $1000 (South Pacific Pesos) duty threshold. You kind folks seem to think it's a pretty good saw, so I hope this will perform to expectations. I seem to be going "all-in" for the Cordless Alliance gear these days. I'd also love to try Rothenbergers Compact TT pipe fitting press tool too, provided I can pick one up "gently" used at a sensible price. If the MT 55 experience goes to schaisse then I might just swear at you all (& the tool) a bit too. Still plan on doing the Via Francigena on Shanks' Pony (2000 km Canterbury - Rome) this coming northern Spring & early Summer. So I could theoretically drop the KSS off @ Folkestone Fixings, for "fixings" with a bit of extra dosh for post-repair postage to Tassie.
|
|
|
Post by aas on Oct 7, 2019 15:00:45 GMT -5
How about that KSS50 - did you ever get that sorted out!? I'd also love to try Rothenbergers Compact TT pipe fitting press tool too, provided I can pick one up "gently" used at a sensible price. I have one if you have any questions... save up for the jaws, unless you don't need too many. I'm up to 7 and counting, total lack of cross compatibility with these press fittings... otherwise, does what it says on the tin. Only got it due to the CAS, didn't want another battery platform.
|
|
|
Post by huntsgemein on Oct 7, 2019 17:23:52 GMT -5
Thanks cobber. I'm reasonably familiar with the larger "4000" series Romax press, which is an older, larger & more powerful version of the "TT". A bit too big, heavy & powerful in my opinion. All of the press fittings that I've experienced & used (copper & PEX), simply don't require mad levels of compression to perform (i.e. seal) adequately: to date for me personally a pair of hand crimps has been satisfactory.
I think the Romax Compact TT would be pretty well perfect. Here in OZ the plumbing trade is dominated by 2 major wholesale/distribution chains, with client suppliers providing requisite subcontractual hardware & fittings. For me, I'd really only require 3000 series "B-press" Copper jaws & maybe a trio of Auspex jaws in 15, 20 & 25mm to cover the overwhelming majority of domestic requirements. Larger sizes, 32, 50mm & up are really the preserve of commercial & industrial installation, and the bigger 4000 press too, of course!.
Keeping with the one single plumbing distributor means that I don't have to double up on Maxipro, Duopex, stainless, gas or other alternative jawsets, saving me a motzah! It's still going to cost AU $2K + for a basic tool only, or about $3 K + with 6 jaws. Which is why I'm looking for a barely used example. I obviously don't even need any flamin' batteries, charger etc. either, but finding a "naked" Press is pretty well unlikely.
|
|
|
Post by henrun on Oct 8, 2019 0:43:48 GMT -5
huntsgemein: ah, sorry to hear about the KSS50! There is now supposedly a Mafell rep "down undah" if I am not mistaken. If you manage to get the carcass to Europe I could help out as best I can. If all else fails you could ship it to me and I could arrange repair and return shipping.
The MT55 18V is a great saw for sure. Pleasure to work with and very accurate.
|
|
|
Post by henrun on Oct 8, 2019 11:41:35 GMT -5
I was curious to see just how well my Jap made HiKoki DRA3606 would stack up, especially after seeing the less than spectacular performance of the 3607 in the video linked above. I used a calibrated DIN machine square that came with a certificate. I have this square to check all my other squares as well as machine settings. I have measured it with a fancy calibrated digital angle gauge that has a resolution of 0.05 degrees, half of a tenth of a degree. The square measures up at exactly 90 degrees. Cuts are "out of the box" since I haven't calibrated the saw since I got it - I know, I should have! Also, this is the stock blade. Did not clamp down the piece, hand support only; but it did look good enough for me to bring out the digital angle gauge as well as the digital caliper. With the square in place there is no discernible gap at all, looks pretty darn bang on!
Don't confuse the sharpening halo at the lower right edge for a gap. Sharpening halo visible across top edge too.
According to the the digital angle gauge the cut was off by half a tenth of a degree though. Same deal with the 45 degree mitre; at least it indicates the 45 degree is "true" to the fence as the discrepancy is the same. I would say that half a tenth of a degree is nothing short of excellent out of the box for a sliding mitre saw. I was not sure if tweaking anything would make things better or worse since it is already possibly the most accurate sliding mitre saw I have tested to date, three Kapex's included. Mind you the blade slide travel is less on the Hikoki since the capacity is less than most standard sliders; on paper it is 185mm but with some shimming I get roughly 200mm out of the saw. Compared to the sliding length of around 305mm on many other saws I have had I think you can live with a little more play/deviation for real life use. Still glad to see it was that good! Decided to release the fence bolts, square up again to the blade and then realign other side of fence. Two bolts per side. Was a bit anxious to see if I would make things worse or not... ...but to my relief the saw is now as good as it gets, what I expect from a Japanese made quality saw. After tweaking I got this on the 45 degree miter: So I decided to see what the deviation would be for a cross cut by measuring the off-cut width at start, mid and end of cut for the capacity of the saw, approx 185mm:
The deviation is as measured 2.66/2.67/2.66 mm = .01 mm in the middle. In real terms that is literally nothing for woodworking. I can hardly push a piece through my well calibrated Felder K700s and achieve the same result. I think if I measured it three times I would perhaps get a slight deviation due to the small tolerances. Since I use this saw for panel and trim on site it is way beyond the accuracy needed for trim install.
Blade flex is minimal which is expected as it is a very small 165mm blade and should not flex much. Glide rails are smooth and very little to no play (as evidenced by the cut off measurement). Blade flex is usually no concern of mine anyway unless we are talking warps and wobbles. Any large miter saw I have seen has blade flex. Just a matter of how much you need to push.
|
|
|
Post by henrun on Oct 8, 2019 12:29:43 GMT -5
My assessment above only goes to show that you should not dismiss a particular brand for shipping a lemon, neither should you take for granted that any particular brand is a cut above the rest, regardless of price. I have a love/hate relationship with mitre saws and I am known to rid myself of them after some time only to end up with a new one on a "per-project" basis. My benchmark is the venerable Makita LS0714L, a compact sliding mitre saw of superb build quality and still available. Build quality puts most other brands to shame, including several of Makitas later offerings. No soft start and very noisy. Dust collection? More like dust spreading! Not a class leader in dust collection (cough, cough, cough) but a great saw! My favourite corded saw of all time due to portability, price and performance. I had the Kapex 120 for a few years, while I still had the Makita. Used the Kapex at the shop and sometimes on site. Never bonded with the Kapex but it was a very good, almost great saw. But, the Makita did the same job for the low end mitre cutting I was doing at the time. Considering how little I talk shop with other colleagues over here I was surprised at the negative reviews on the Kapex. Until I had two colleagues having their machines fail within a short period of time with costly repairs. Both of them babied their machines. One still has his unit and the other swore never to buy a Festool mitre saw again... Decided to sell mine and have yet to miss it. My next door colleague preferred the never Bosch Glide and seems happy with it. Had a stint with Metabo: KGS216 and KGS305: no frills machines that did the job. Chump change saws with good performance. Built a few decks with them as I could afford leaving them on site - my Makita got stolen one night from a locked shed on site, since then I never leave gear behind I can't afford to lose. Last Metabo 305 burnt up all of a sudden: had just arrived on site and was just starting it up with no load and smoke came out of it... ...thanks to some good connections I managed to get a new one just an hour later and exchange the one year old saw on the spot! It put a dent in the confidence of Metabo cheap mitre saws and the customer bought it off me for some minor work he had planned. Got me the Festool KS60 as one of the first customers to receive one over here. I was probably the first to hand it back too. Shadow cut line is not for me. My unit had blade wobble too and did not inspire confidence at all. I would not pay half the price of the Kapex KS60 and call it a bargain. I thought it too heavy for the size and happily got me another Makita LS0714 instead, now that felt like a bargain! All the time I had the Festool SYM70E which I really enjoy using, and still do! Decided on a larger saw to compliment the SYM70E and a friend in need bought my Makita. Which I regret selling. Did not find a larger saw that I liked as I had my eyes set on the Japanese made Hitachi 10" that has gotten rave reviews only to find it was impossible to find nowadays, discontinued. The Hitachi 12" was still around but too heavy and did not have the same reputation. As the next decking job landed from one week to the next I decided to get the low end Hitachi 8" slider. Cheap. Flimsy. Plasticky. Hate it. But it cuts straight! It is a Chinese made saw (or Taiwan?) and inspires no confidence. I think I will give it away for christmas to a friend but it is kind of handy to have a loaner mitre saw around the shop. Got the Makita DLS600z - that little mini-mitre-dual-bevel which I still hold as a brilliant little piece of kit. Main gripe is the rotating mitre/lock which is flimsy. But this little gem has seen me through a few sound studio builds and has performed flawlessly for trim and acoustic panels on site with the little Festool SYS-Vac. Batteries last a very, very long time. This is the unit that impressed me so much I was trying to see if Hitachi had something similar and that's how I happened upon the DR3606. Same blade size as the Makita, slider to increase the range into 95% of what I do. Even more powerful than the Makita (it is a 36V machine) and only slightly larger. HOWEVER.... ...since I have no self respect and I am a well known gear hoarding slut I did actually sink low enough to order the new Makita LS610 from Japan - if only to compare it to the Hitachi/Hikoki slider. The Makita cannot possibly dethrone the Hikoki for accuracy - it can only at best equal it. If it is as good as my H/H it will have the advantage of dual bevel and could edge out the Hitachi/Hikoki as my go to mitre saw on site. It is a win win situation: I like it? I keep it. If I think I am just as well off with the Hitachi/Hikoki - well then my colleague is literally itching to get the new Makita and will happily buy it from me. The new Makita is not available in Europe yet and will perhaps not even be released for quite some time so selling it would be the easiest thing as most people are not willing to risk ordering gear from overseas. Will pit them against one another as soon as it arrives and report back in a new thread!
|
|
|
Post by kraftt on Oct 13, 2019 9:59:13 GMT -5
I just saw these last two very good posts, as they got buried, and just wanted to give them a Sunday 'bump'.
|
|
|
Post by henrun on Oct 13, 2019 12:35:51 GMT -5
Thanks Kraftt! I figured I maybe should have waited a bit with my assessment results, until I got the Makita mini slider. After the somewhat disappointing YouTube DRA3607 result (which I don't doubt) I was eager to find out how good/bad my unit was. I had the feeling it was good - as I have used it extensively already - but the confirmation was nice to have. Sharing the results will at least show that Hitachi/Hikoki actually can make an accurate scms. Testing a single unit does not make for solid statistics and that's why I don't disregard anything but an obviously poor construction. I would not totally disregard the Metabo HPT 3607 but considering the cost I am not tempted to try one for myself only to be disappointed. As mentioned I have had a Kapex KS60 lemon which goes to show that NO brand is immune to poor QC. This doesn't mean that I disregard the Kapex, I just find it about as overpriced as the Metabo HPT/Hikoki DRA3607 - and offering less "innovation" to boot. Frankly I don't care about innovation all that much. I don't need Bluetooth or other gizmos if that makes the bread and butter machine more expensive. Would I still happily own a "within spec" Kapex KS60? Heck yes, just don't wanna pay the premium for it though I can afford it. It is too heavy for an on site saw of that cut capacity class. And I prefer battery saws. End of rant. This thread has been run its course by now I guess, will post more in the Makita thread once it gets going.
|
|